Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly
Point 1 is pointless. Your argument there makes no sense. On point 2, why are you bringing up what "some ppl" say about Laver? Most consider Federer to be GOAT rather than Laver. Also, you criticized me earlier claiming that I was not taking any other factors other than total achievements into consideration -- in a vacuum? When I bring up one of these other factors, you criticize me for that. Where is the consistency, man?
As for competition these greats faced, I also mentioned that Court was not playing against a strong field at the 11 AO singles events that she won. You are wrong on that account as well.
Get your facts straight... Again, where in this thread or any other thread did I claim that Serena was using steroids. In another thread, not this one, I speculated that Serena might have high testosterone levels but I never did claim that she was using steroids.
As for competition faced by others... NA keeps harping on the Seles stabbing. Even w/o Seles in the picture, Graf still had plenty of competition. It was not a "weak era" w/o Seles as some would have you believe. Note also that pre-stabbing, Graf and Seles met 10 times and Graf still had the lead head-to-head. At Wimbledon (89 & 92), Steffi blew Monica out of the water. Check out those scores.
point1- in you didn't know ppl considered laver the best before fed then you obviously don't follow tennis that well and shouldn't debate a goat list.
and its called using your argument against you. you claim to consider a person's whole career but rate someone with no major dbls or mix dbls titles over the two best in at least achievement? even if just do singles graf's numbers aren't much better than court's or nav's.
point2- competition? like who? vicario,or novonta? many of her rivals like capriati,davenport,pierce and hingis were better players during serena's time.
point3- graf-seles h2h is misleading. in 1990 seles was 16, in 88 she was 14 when she debuted. at that time graf was 20 and 18. 3 of graf's wins were seles was 15,graf 19. it was alot closer(4-3 seles) when monica started reaching her prime but she was beating graf on 3 of 4 surfaces.