The Edberg kicker

[SirSweetSpot]

A few things I've noticed about the legendary Swede and his service motion:

What's with the "crook" in his wrist/hand? A lot of people are proponents of bending the wrist before the ball toss. How long do you keep it "cocked"? I've always had a straight wrist/hand. Have I been cheating myself all these years? I've noticed some pros do it and some don't. Could someone tell me the practicality of doing such?

He never looks at the ball at impact! You'll notice he is always looking into the service box well before he strikes the ball. Is this a bad habit that he never overcame? Staring the felt off the ball is immensely crucial to a successful kick serve.

He seems to employ a continental grip as opposed to the EBH.

He keeps his tossing arm up in the air like perfection...so textbook, a la David Nalbandian. He stays sideways for so long and then explodes.

[LeeD]

Crook is cocked. You release it when you feel like it.
Low consistent toss doesn't need you to stare at it, ala Tanner. Pulling your head down lowers your ball arc, so maybe he's hitting high, but pulling it down with his head.
His grip is conti because he's anticipatin a VOLLEY. Conti's work best, next best is conti towards EFH side, and conti towards EBH works worst, except for backhand volleys.

[SirSweetSpot]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Crook is cocked. You release it when you feel like it.
Low consistent toss doesn't need you to stare at it, ala Tanner. Pulling your head down lowers your ball arc, so maybe he's hitting high, but pulling it down with his head. His grip is conti because he's anticipatin a VOLLEY. Conti's work best, next best is conti towards EFH side, and conti towards EBH works worst, except for backhand volleys.

Very interesting.

Lee can you explain the release of the crook? Is it a forced yet fluid motion, or is it part of the overall arm being as loose as possible?

[35ft6]

I never really thought of Edberg's serve as a true kicker. To me it was a slightly loopier version of a Sampras serve, which to me wasn't a true kicker either. They both hit a really solid, heavy, spinny ball but one that continuously moved forward with decent pace, not a true kicker in that it exploded up off the court on the bounce after almost a lazy arcing flight through the air. Like Sampras, also, his first and second serves often were indistinguishable in terms of speed.

[Dino Lagaffe]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

I never really thought of Edberg's serve as a true kicker. To me it was a slightly loopier version of a Sampras serve, which to me wasn't a true kicker either. They both hit a really solid, heavy, spinny ball but one that continuously moved forward with decent pace, not a true kicker in that it exploded up off the court on the bounce after almost a lazy arcing flight through the air. Like Sampras, also, his first and second serves often were indistinguishable in terms of speed.

Who would you say have the best example of a true kicker?

[vive le beau jeu !]

did rafter "kick" more than edberg ?...

EDIT
^^
ok, the answer kinda arrived while i was posting my question !

[LeeD]

Vids of Edberg were mostly during Finals matches against an equally top player. Nowadaze, vids of the other players are edited "highlights" which show only the very best serves.
No way anyone had a much better kicker than Edberg. He mixed higher speeds with lower bounces to lower speeds and higher bounces at will. That'
s why he was so effective.

[35ft6]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Vids of Edberg were mostly during Finals matches against an equally top player.

I'm not just going by Youtube videos. I'm old enough to have seen Edberg play many times.

[onehandbh]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

I never really thought of Edberg's serve as a true kicker. To me it was a slightly loopier version of a Sampras serve, which to me wasn't a true kicker either. They both hit a really solid, heavy, spinny ball but one that continuously moved forward with decent pace, not a true kicker in that it exploded up off the court on the bounce after almost a lazy arcing flight through the air. Like Sampras, also, his first and second serves often were indistinguishable in terms of speed.

Edberg's serve was different from Sampras, IMO. I saw it live
a couple times. His serve had more of an American twist kick.
So if you're a righty and it comes to your backhand, after
the bounce it breaks even more to your left and away from
your backhand. Sometimes it's hard to see the amount of
action on TV. I had some seats that were in the first
row right behind the baseline and you could definitely see
the action. Fed has a pretty good deuce side twist serve.
There's probably a good youtube of it from the returner's
perspective (to see the action) somewhere.

I rarely face anyone w/good twist kick serves these days,
so when I see one it messes up my returns -- especially
against lefties. You'll know when you're facing one b/c you
really have to adjust to take the action on the ball into
account. When you're returning on the backhand side, the
spin will make your returns go further left than usual.

[LeeD]

As a lefty, one of my most effective serves is the slow twist to righties forehands, which breaks away from them and around chin to eye heights. They just don't always move their feet out wide vs lefties, something they need to do against that serve. They all expect wide out away from their backhands.

[AAAA]

I think his serving grip was more eastern bachhand than chopper. Supposed to give him a better kick/topspin serve. I tried it a few times stopped because my wrist isn't strong enough.

[LeeD]

Looked EBH because of his cocked wrist. Try it, conti with cocked wrist and have someone look at it.
You release it by relaxing. WHEN you relax it depends what you're trying to hit and where to.

[35ft6]

^ Not sure. Maybe I underestimate the kick serves of some players, but I've seen Ljubicic, Federer, Agassi (on the ad side), and Rafter hit some nasty kick serves. Watching videos of Edberg on Youtube, his opponents are hitting returns in their wheelhouses more or less without having to move in to take the ball on the rise.

[35ft6]

Not positive, but it seemed to me like Edberg expected the serve to come back, he wasn't afraid to hit 2 volleys to win the point. Maybe I'm underestimating his kick serve, but to me, he hit the same serve spin every time. He didn't have a flat serve, a slice serve, american twist, and kick, etc. I mean, he moved the placement around, but it seemed like his serve, like Sampras, was fast and heavy, more about placement than the spin being tough to manage. The spin was more about giving them margin for error. And again, like Sampras, his first and second serves were the same, the 2nd just had slightly less pace, and in Sampras' case, maybe the same pace often times.

Tennis magazine did a study years ago where they measured pace and spin on serves. At the time, Greg Rusedski had the most sheer speed. Rios had the most spin. And Pete had the highest combination of both. To me, it seemed like Edberg was another spot server with great combo of speed and spin. Of course, Pete's serve was more of an ace machine and better, but just saying. Both hit very deep serves, too, and I usually associate a true kick serve landing a bit shorter to not allow the returner to charge in and take it on the rise.

I would almost generalize and say the kick serve is more of a clay court weapon, and the great serve and volleyers were more about mixing up the placement.

edit: this post wasn't a response to LeeD...

[AndrewD]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

Not positive, but it seemed to me like Edberg expected the serve to come back, he wasn't afraid to hit 2 volleys to win the point.

Mate, that's why they call it serve AND volley. You use your serve to set up the first volley. If you can't win the point on the first volley you use it to set up the second volley. It's why McEnroe, Rafter, Cash and Edberg were serve-volley players but Pete Sampras was NOT. Sampras served to win the point, the others served to set up the volley.

Originally Posted by 35ft6

I mean, he moved the placement around, but it seemed like his serve, like Sampras, was fast and heavy, more about placement than the spin being tough to manage. The spin was more about giving them margin for error. And again, like Sampras, his first and second serves were the same, the 2nd just had slightly less pace, and in Sampras' case, maybe the same pace often times.

Edberg's serve wasn't really like Sampras's at all. I called service line in enough of their Aus Open matches from 88 to 2001 to be able to make a very informed comparison and you're talking apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by 35ft6

I would almost generalize and say the kick serve is more of a clay court weapon, and the great serve and volleyers were more about mixing up the placement.

The kick serve is a weapon on all surfaces, especially hard (that's why Rafter won the US Open and not Wimbledon). The kick forces a weaker and high return, especially if you can get it up to your opponent's backhand and/or moving away. It also gives you extra time to get in to the net in order to make best position for the first volley.

[hoodjem]

BSSOAT (?)

Best second serve of all time.

[35ft6]

Originally Posted by AndrewD

Mate, that's why they call it serve AND volley. You use your serve to set up the first volley.

Was making the distinction between him and the way many players approach charging the net today, which is only when they expect a very weak return or perhaps no return at all.

Edberg's serve wasn't really like Sampras's at all.

You missed my point. The same in that it seemed like all their serves were the same kind of serve, just the pace was different.

I called service line in enough of their Aus Open matches from 88 to 2001 to be able to make a very informed comparison and you're talking apples and oranges.

Maybe I needed to see Edberg in person. Just on TV, his serve didn't really look like a big kicker even though his backbend would suggest it might be.

The kick serve is a weapon on all surfaces, especially hard (that's why Rafter won the US Open and not Wimbledon). The kick forces a weaker and high return, especially if you can get it up to your opponent's backhand and/or moving away. It also gives you extra time to get in to the net in order to make best position for the first volley.

Yeah, we all know this. Just seemed at the moment I wrote that post that guys like Mac and Edberg didn't really use kickers that much. It was more mixing up the placement. But I could be wrong. The kickers I really appreciate are ones I've seen in person. Maybe the TV is misleading. I associate kickers with off speed, almost slow serves that land short and explode off the court. Edberg's serves always looked too fast. Oh well...

[LeeD]

Edberg did have a fast twist/kicker, when he wanted to hit 110. He could vary it down like a rheostat down to 65mph, used more arc, and really kick it up high.
And kick serves are most effective when HIT DEEP right at the service line. It kicks higher on deeper serves, having more arc and distance to cover, causing higher bounces. Short kicks are for ANGLES out wide and short center lines.
Yes, probably the best, most consistent second serve ever in tennis.

[SirSweetSpot]

It's amazing the incredible success he had when considering his opponent knew it was going to be a kicker and knew he was scampering to the net, yet still prove futile. I don't know the exact statistics, maybe someone knows where to look, but I'd bet money that Edberg is near the top of the all-time list on holding serve percentage, and I bet the number would be jaw-dropping.

[AndrewD]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

Was making the distinction between him and the way many players approach charging the net today, which is only when they expect a very weak return or perhaps no return at all.

And I was just saying that's why he was a real serve-volley player and Sampras wasn't - something most on the board don't seem to understand. Can't really talk about today's players because none of them have the vaguest idea how to serve and volley.

Originally Posted by 35ft6

You missed my point. The same in that it seemed like all their serves were the same kind of serve, just the pace was different.Maybe I needed to see Edberg in person. Just on TV, his serve didn't really look like a big kicker even though his backbend would suggest it might be.Yeah, we all know this. Just seemed at the moment I wrote that post that guys like Mac and Edberg didn't really use kickers that much. It was more mixing up the placement. But I could be wrong. The kickers I really appreciate are ones I've seen in person. Maybe the TV is misleading. I associate kickers with off speed, almost slow serves that land short and explode off the court. Edberg's serves always looked too fast. Oh well...

Of the players I've seen on-court while umpiring (starting from 88 to 2001/02), only Rafter used the kick serve as routinely for the first serve as Edberg did. Of course his serve had to have some pace to it, otherwise he'd never have been able to set up for a good first volley. You can't just put in a slow one that kicks a mile. That only works against hackers like us.

Edberg had the best transition into the volley after his kick serve, Rafter was second best. However, the best kick serve I've ever seen belong to Wayne Arthurs. He could kick it up to head height while still generating a huge amount of pace and he could do it with the regular kick serve or a twist serve. Actually, Roddick is very close but he doesn't have the leftie advantage.

As to Edberg being similar to Sampras, I'd say it's not entirely true. Pete, like all good servers, did put spin on his first serve for safey but the delivery was so much flatter than anything Edberg hit. Sampras's second serve had kick but,again, nowhere near the same amount as Edberg's (I could hear the spin Edberg put on the ball, not Sampras). The whole point being that Pete was trying to force an error via the serve whereas Stefan was trying to set up the easy volley. Again, that's why one was a true serve-volley player and the other wasn't.