Acceptable number of double faults?

[ajmack]

I'm focusing on reducing my double faults, something I did 10 times in an 8-game set and 14 or 15 times total in the same match last week. Earlier this year, I double faulted five times in one game.
So, what would be roughly the average number of double faults by the typical 4.0 league player?. Maybe one double fault every service game or would it be two service games?

[Ripper014]

Originally Posted by ajmack

I'm focusing on reducing my double faults, something I did 10 times in an 8-game set and 14 or 15 times total in the same match last week. Earlier this year, I double faulted five times in one game.
So, what would be roughly the average number of double faults by the typical 4.0 league player?. Maybe one double fault every service game or would it be two service games?

It depends more on the player and how aggressive a server you are... but once you reach a level of 4.0 a double fault should not even enter your mind. Doubles usually happen when you go for a little too much on a second serve or because of a lapse of concentration. At this level they really shouldn't happen otherwise.

If you are at this level you are either going for too much on your second serve or you haven't quite reached 4.0 yet.

[Dave M]

Fair comments above, i try not to count my doubls but do try to mke sure i hit more aces/un retunables than doubles, to that end though i do find myself going for a second serve a bit more than i pobably should and end up with either a 2nd seve ace or a double though it does depend on the situation.
If you are giving away too many cheap points on serve take a bit off the first serve and place it more shoul kep the pressure on your opponent more as well.

[larry10s]

by 4.0 you should double at most 1-2 per MATCH. in essence you really shouldnt double fault

[Totai]

Originally Posted by larry10s

by 4.0 you should double at most 1-2 per MATCH. in essence you really shouldnt double fault

Federer gets more than 1-2 DF per match. He is less than 4.0?

[SlapShot]

Originally Posted by larry10s

by 4.0 you should double at most 1-2 per MATCH. in essence you really shouldnt double fault

I don't think that there's any way that you can have a blanket statement like the above.

You should not fear double faults - you shouldn't embrace them either, but if you NEVER double fault, you have room to go for more on your second serve. I will hit a few per match, but 75% of the time, it's because I'm trying to hit a forcing serve as a second. I prefer to leave those for when it's 40-0 or 40-15 if I can.

[dlk]

At the lower levels, getting the ball into play should be focus. Now obviously, you don't want your second serves getting murdered, but at least give yourself an opportunity. I'm not an advanced player, with that, if I DF once in four service games, I can live with that. It's when I DF per service game, that I tone it down & try to get it into play.

[spot]

If you never double fault I don't think you are going for enough on your second serve. I mean seriously- go further out wide or go closer to the lines... At some point just getting the serve in is counterproductive when you have that much control.

[blakesq]

1 double fault every service game is way way too much. 1 double fautl every 2 service games is of course better, but still too much, imho. Unless you have a 150 mile first serve, and a 120 mile second serve, you should try to double fault as little as 2 times a match. I have gone some matches with no double faults (but that is rare). you should get your second serve in at least in the 80 to 90% range, or better.

Originally Posted by ajmack

I'm focusing on reducing my double faults, something I did 10 times in an 8-game set and 14 or 15 times total in the same match last week. Earlier this year, I double faulted five times in one game.
So, what would be roughly the average number of double faults by the typical 4.0 league player?. Maybe one double fault every service game or would it be two service games?

[spot]

Ripper- we just look at things differently. I think that I could get all my second serves in if thats all I care about. I think I can hit second service winners by moving the ball around and trying to go nearer the lines. Yes I will DF some- but just as surely I'll lose some points as well by just trying to make sure that I get the ball in the box.

I am not talking about hitting big serves- But I'll EASILY take an aggressive second serve where I DF a couple times a match vs just trying to make sure that I NEVER DF. I don't see why this would be different on groundstrokes. Sure you could push the ball and never hit an unforced error- but I think its smarter to hit rally pace balls where you can consistently attack even if it means sometimes you will hit unforced errors.

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by spot

Ripper- we just look at things differently. I think that I could get all my second serves in if thats all I care about. I think I can hit second service winners by moving the ball around and trying to go nearer the lines. Yes I will DF some- but just as surely I'll lose some points as well by just trying to make sure that I get the ball in the box.

I am not talking about hitting big serves- But I'll EASILY take an aggressive second serve where I DF a couple times a match vs just trying to make sure that I NEVER DF. I don't see why this would be different on groundstrokes. Sure you could push the ball and never hit an unforced error- but I think its smarter to hit rally pace balls where you can consistently attack even if it means sometimes you will hit unforced errors.

Well there are times where its completely unacceptable to DF. In mixed for example, it is almost always the case that you can serve to the woman with conservative serves and still win the point. It is just stupid to risk a DF in that scenario. Not that its guaranteed, but typically in leagues the women don't see nearly as big or spinny serves against other women, so unless they play mixed year round, or are very high level, they are going to have problems against the male servers, so you want to take advantage of that.

[gameboy]

As long as I have more aces/forced errors than double faults, I will take it.

[Ripper014]

The only serve I struggle with is an american twist serve, everything else I can hit it is just a matter of how high a percentage of them I get in, and that will change from day to day.

I normally rely on a well placed heavy kick serve for my second, that I use to initiate the point. I use it not to win the point outright but to setup the point, to at least give me some advantage at the start of the point. My biggest issue is that my second serve doesn't puts me at a disadvantage. I have the rest of my tennis game to win me the point... I don't try and win it on my second serve alone.

And yes I do hit my second serve as hard as my first... but we are talking about double faults and not about how hard we hit the serve. When down break points I have even been known to hit my kicker as my first serve so the receiver does not have the mindset to attack a second serve.

All in all r2473 I agree with everything you have written

[dizzlmcwizzl]

For a recreational player, expecially at the 4.0 level, the likleyhood of your opponent consistently returning your serve so well that they have the advantage (instead of you) on the return is slim. If this happens one of you is likley not a 4.0.

When you are facing a good returner you may have to go for a little more and risk more DFs. Be less agressive against someone who is just going to block it back no matter how you serve. But unless the serves you get in are absolutley fantastic it is not worth giving away 1 or 2 points per service game in DFs. I am a 4.0 and generally I am surprised if I DF 2 times per set ...

I agree that you likely have some fundamental flaws in your serve if you double fault that much.

[ajmack]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

For a recreational player, expecially at the 4.0 level, the likleyhood of your opponent consistently returning your serve so well that they have the advantage (instead of you) on the return is slim. If this happens one of you is likley not a 4.0.

When you are facing a good returner you may have to go for a little more and risk more DFs. Be less agressive against someone who is just going to block it back no matter how you serve. But unless the serves you get in are absolutley fantastic it is not worth giving away 1 or 2 points per service game in DFs. I am a 4.0 and generally I am surprised if I DF 2 times per set ...

I agree that you likely have some fundamental flaws in your serve if you double fault that much.

Just to clear up a few things:
- I'm definitely a 4.0. I've won all my singles matches, three, at that level, one easily. I've been competitive in doubles.
- I understand the risk/reward and situational aspects (opponent's strengths, return ability, etc.). I wanted to keep the issue simple and not muddy the waters.
- The 10 d.f.'s were unusual and the most for me in more than 20 plus matches this year. The d.f.'s seem to come in waves, a la Sharapova, I guess.
- Only one opponent at the 4.0 level has consistently put me in a defensive position on the second serve. It's when I fail to get the ball to his backhand on the ad court. He likes to drag a forward down the line.
- My second serve is a kick serve that can be pretty effective when it's working. I often hit it on first serves, especially in doubles.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by ajmack

I'm focusing on reducing my double faults, something I did 10 times in an 8-game set and 14 or 15 times total in the same match last week. Earlier this year, I double faulted five times in one game.
So, what would be roughly the average number of double faults by the typical 4.0 league player?. Maybe one double fault every service game or would it be two service games?

Originally Posted by ajmack

Just to clear up a few things:
- I'm definitely a 4.0. I've won all my singles matches, three, at that level, one easily. I've been competitive in doubles.
- The 10 d.f.'s were unusual and the most for me in more than 20 plus matches this year. The d.f.'s seem to come in waves, a la Sharapova, I guess.
- Only one opponent at the 4.0 level has consistently put me in a defensive position on the second serve. It's when I fail to get the ball to his backhand on the ad court. He likes to drag a forward down the line.
- My second serve is a kick serve that can be pretty effective when it's working. I often hit it on first serves, especially in doubles.

I did not intend to offend. It could have been just as likely that your serve was being punished because you were playing superior opponents rather than you were below the appropriate level. Based on your record it seems like neither of these are the case. However, 1 DF per service game per service game is to many no matter what your strategy is. 1 For every 2 service games is as well, unless you feel you have to try for a lot more to be competitive.

However, comments like "DF come in waves", "if my second serve is working" and "DF 5 times in one game" ... all suggest flaws in your serve mechanics or your approach to serving in general.

[West Coast Ace]

I agree with most on the board (except dizzlmcwizzl saying 4.0s are 'recreational' players - I wish - in SoCal they are very, very serious). OP might want to have a friend look at his 2nd serve - or take a lesson. That's a lot of DFs.

And there are good DFs - going for something you normally don't when you're up 40-0 isn't a terrible thing. At 15-40 you have to get it in - even if there is a strong chance your opponent might kill it - until you get to 4.5 and higher, you should make opponents try to win points and limit your giveaways.

And one other thing (didn't read every post word for word so I apologize if someone else touched on it): OP might want to look at how he warms up. Hit 2nd serves until you've got it grooved. Then hit a few 1sts. Don't go for huge serves in your 1st service game. Ease into it as the 1st set evolves.

[film1]

I think it has a lot to do with how potent the serve is? If you have an average serve very few can be too many. If you have a big powerful serve and get a lot of free points more are acceptable.
At times I double fault more than I like but I often hard after my second serve, harder than many I play go for their first.
It boils to holding your serve, if you hold serve it's not so important, if you struggle you really need to get the ball in play.

[LeeD]

The total number of double faults YOU hit must be more than matched by the number of total unreturnables you solicit.
You can also count weak sitter returns, but then you'd have to consider that part of your normal second serve.

[Geezer Guy]

Personally, I often go for a somewhat aggressive second serve. Not a flat bomb, but a kick with a LOT of kick. I DF about once every other game - and I'm OK with that. I'd rather lose the point on my terms by going for too much than to lose it by tossing in a wounded duck that my opponent can shoot out of the sky.