New USTA PPR Point Table for 2012

[klu375]

http://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/Jun..._point_tables/

So there will be even more discrepancy between USTA and TR.NET ranking, between top players and the rest. Probably even more kids will be locked out of National tournaments. Sectional play will be made more irrelevant. For L1 there is a quota at least. To consistently play national tournaments you need to jump on the national bandwagon in 12s and try to ride this wave till the end.

[treeman10]

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[TennisCoachFLA]

There are some possible positives. "Substantially more points" for each round of advancement is good in some ways. Maybe that will encourage more development time like in Europe instead of simply playing lots of tournaments to get points and losing in rounds 1-2.

For example, a talented kid whose game plan is more training and a lower amount of tournaments could get lots of points for fewer tournaments. Seems to me it levels the playing field points wise between the point chasing kids who play 10000 tournaments and the talented kids more focused on development.

I guess I am looking at it from a selfish point of view long term. In the future I would love for my girl to be able to train a lot, show up to the minimum amount of tournaments yet get the maximum amount of points if she is good enough to advance in the tournament.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

There are some possible positives. "Substantially more points" for each round of advancement is good in some ways. Maybe that will encourage more development time like in Europe instead of simply playing lots of tournaments to get points and losing in rounds 1-2.

For example, a talented kid whose game plan is more training and a lower amount of tournaments could get lots of points for fewer tournaments. Seems to me it levels the playing field points wise between the point chasing kids who play 10000 tournaments and the talented kids more focused on development.

I guess I am looking at it from a selfish point of view long term. In the future I would love for my girl to be able to train a lot, show up to the minimum amount of tournaments yet get the maximum amount of points if she is good enough to advance in the tournament.

Your logic sounds good.

So, your daughter trains a lot and then shows up...

How does she get in without any points?

Is she part of the Boca USTA group that receives the wc and she gets in?

[klu375]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

There are some possible positives. "Substantially more points" for each round of advancement is good in some ways. Maybe that will encourage more development time like in Europe instead of simply playing lots of tournaments to get points and losing in rounds 1-2.

For example, a talented kid whose game plan is more training and a lower amount of tournaments could get lots of points for fewer tournaments. Seems to me it levels the playing field points wise between the point chasing kids who play 10000 tournaments and the talented kids more focused on development.

I guess I am looking at it from a selfish point of view long term. In the future I would love for my girl to be able to train a lot, show up to the minimum amount of tournaments yet get the maximum amount of points if she is good enough to advance in the tournament.

What you want would be well served by the tournaments that have quals. This new system will mostly encourage travel to places like Midland, TX in search of softer draw.
Can somebody with USTA connection explain why American college coaches support this change? I understand why USTA Player development does. They care only about players who can win national tournaments. And if their players fail to do it - they will get a wildcard into the next one.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by klu375

What you want would be well served by the tournaments that have quals. This new system will mostly encourage travel to places like Midland, TX in search of softer draw.
Can somebody with USTA connection explain why American college coaches support this change? I understand why USTA Player development does. They care only about players who can win national tournaments. And if their players fail to do it - they will get a wildcard into next one.

Can Justinmadison explain the long term consequences too?

[tennis5]

Last comment for today -

Sorry, am so ticked about this.

First, they mess up the juniors, then they mess up the tens,
and now with some time on their hands, they mess up the juniors again.

Sectional play - 2011 - 56 points now for semi finalist

Sectional play - 2012 - 18 points for semi finalist.

18 points to reach the semi finals?

[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by klu375

What you want would be well served by the tournaments that have quals. This new system will mostly encourage travel to places like Midland, TX in search of softer draw.
Can somebody with USTA connection explain why American college coaches support this change? I understand why USTA Player development does. They care only about players who can win national tournaments. And if their players fail to do it - they will get a wildcard into the next one.

So true...

[treeman10]

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[cmb]

Originally Posted by treeman10

College coaches don't support this change. Just because PMac pushes the path to college tennis now, don't think the two groups are bff's. Remember USTA shunned college tennis for a long time, but recently more pros have been coming from college (meaning college coaches have been doing better job at development than USTA for last decade). Thus the "can't beat 'em then join 'em" attitude shift from USTA. But don't think in general that college coaches are always aligned with USTA decisions.

This will give college coaches less opportunities to see players at tournaments. And some of the talented players with development potential won't be there because of sectional quotas.

And another important aspect is that over the long haul, the talent pool colleges get will be less mature. You can not underestimate the importance of a rigorous junior traveling/tournament schedule to get you ready for the big tennis programs. Winning a tournament in your town is so much different than winning it on the road. It is part of development. So those going to regular school and never traveling, or the sectional players that have done very few nationals or do them close to home, often find themselves overwhelmed their first year of college, not being able to balance the schoolwork, travel, practices and remaking of their game for the college arena.

There are more longer term and broader impacts that will continue to fall out of this. The decision to change the amount of tournaments and restructure is a huge row of dominoes just beginning to fall. It will be the next "wrong decision" they have to right in 5 years, after the damage is done. The attempt to save people money that didn't want to travel, or commit, or both, will cost junior tennis so much more.

You guys are something else.

This is nonsense....I know some French/German/Spanish guys that never leave their region of their country (which is about the size of texas) and come out just fine. They still have not found a way to get Juniors, College players, and Pros all playing the same tournaments on a consistent basis......thats the real problem.

[Erman]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

There are some possible positives. "Substantially more points" for each round of advancement is good in some ways. Maybe that will encourage more development time like in Europe instead of simply playing lots of tournaments to get points and losing in rounds 1-2.

For example, a talented kid whose game plan is more training and a lower amount of tournaments could get lots of points for fewer tournaments. Seems to me it levels the playing field points wise between the point chasing kids who play 10000 tournaments and the talented kids more focused on development.

I guess I am looking at it from a selfish point of view long term. In the future I would love for my girl to be able to train a lot, show up to the minimum amount of tournaments yet get the maximum amount of points if she is good enough to advance in the tournament.

The problem isn't that your girl isn't good enough. The problem is that if she's good enough and can't enter the tournament by "showing up" due to the limited size and lack of qualifying rounds. She has to have ranking points to enter tournaments and in order to get those points she has to enter tournaments and in order to enter tournaments she has to have ranking points .......get the point? So the kids that get in early and win in 12's get to play the best and improve while others have to hope their kid makes a good run at some sectionals then pops off a couple of wins at a national segment early in his/her two year age bracket in order to start playing up and accumulating points for the next age bracket.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by Erman

The problem isn't that your girl isn't good enough. The problem is that if she's good enough and can't enter the tournament by "showing up" due to the limited size and lack of qualifying rounds. She has to have ranking points to enter tournaments and in order to get those points she has to enter tournaments and in order to enter tournaments she has to have ranking points .......get the point? So the kids that get in early and win in 12's get to play the best and improve while others have to hope their kid makes a good run at some sectionals then pops off a couple of wins at a national segment early in his/her two year age bracket in order to start playing up and accumulating points for the next age bracket.

Yes I do 'get the point'. However we are in a different situation than most, my kid is a freak. Not bragging, just stating facts, and the opinions of others that see her hit and play practice points. She walks into a situation of what are considered talented kids and within minutes it is obvious she is on another level. Again, no bragging, perhaps it has zero to do with my coaching. She has a great uncle who was a world class athlete before tearing up his shoulder....perhaps she just inherited it and I was in the right place at the right time by starting her at 18 months old into tennis.

The girls that played in the Herr's 12s finals? She will be much better than they are are by age 11. The flaws in their games are huge, yet they are among the best 12s. Thus I have no worries that in the future she will be just fine taking a different path.

I do not agree at all that kids improve in the 12s. I think the reverse. Watch the Herr's winner hit with a dead end forehand grip, and her opponent have a mediocre serve....12s means nothing. Kids who focus on development and properly designed practice matches improve more, especially if they are freaks. They can then learn to compete as time goes on....16s-18s. We will also focus more on ITFs than USTA as she gets older.

I would agree with you that some kids need to take the path you set out or be shut out of higher level tournaments. But if the end result of the USTA points situation is that American kids now have to take points even more seriously in the 12s?? That will result in worse technique and strategy and overall development long term. If you think the kids who "get in early and win in 12's" will truly be the best in the end compared to kids world wise....sorry, more likely the reverse is true.

[klu375]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

Yes I do 'get the point'. However we are in a different situation than most, my kid is a freak. Not bragging, just stating facts, and the opinions of others that see her hit and play practice points. She walks into a situation of what are considered talented kids and within minutes it is obvious she is on another level. Again, no bragging, perhaps it has zero to do with my coaching. She has a great uncle who was a world class athlete before tearing up his shoulder....perhaps she just inherited it and I was in the right place at the right time by starting her at 18 months old into tennis.

The girls that played in the Herr's 12s finals? She will be much better than they are are by age 11. The flaws in their games are huge, yet they are among the best 12s. Thus I have no worries that in the future she will be just fine taking a different path.

I do not agree at all that kids improve in the 12s. I think the reverse. Watch the Herr's winner hit with a dead end forehand grip, and her opponent have a mediocre serve....12s means nothing. Kids who focus on development and properly designed practice matches improve more, especially if they are freaks. They can then learn to compete as time goes on....16s-18s. We will also focus more on ITFs than USTA as she gets older.

I would agree with you that some kids need to take the path you set out or be shut out of higher level tournaments. But if the end result of the USTA points situation is that American kids now have to take points even more seriously in the 12s?? That will result in worse technique and strategy and overall development long term. If you think the kids who "get in early and win in 12's" will truly be the best in the end compared to kids world wise....sorry, more likely the reverse is true.

TCF - you are bragging. Stop hanging out with "massage therapist" and re-read your own posts in this other thread. There are no prizes for hitting and playing points, it is winning Eddie Herr that makes you a freak. Mediocre serve? Half of WTA has a mediocre serve. You do not like her forehand? I saw her match - she knows how to win. Every 12-14 girl that played Eddie Herr has technical and/or tactical flows. So what - they are work in progress.
You have a long long way to go with your daughter. Some of her competition did not even discover tennis yet - but they are scoring goals on soccer and lax fields and they are very athletic and tenacious. Pace yourself, your main goal is to make sure she does not quit before ITF age. And do not brag until she wins something big.

[justinmadison]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

However we are in a different situation than most, my kid is a freak. Not bragging, just stating facts, and the opinions of others that see her hit and play practice points.

I look forward to hearing how she does when she starts to play tournament matches.

[jigglypuff]

How will Section tournaments that count for national ranking be affected?
The ranking points earned at the 12 tournaments each Section designates as Levels 3, 4 and 5 will be reduced. This change is an acknowledgment of the inherent flaw in having 17 Sections of different sizes and strengths feeding into one national ranking system. Although reduced, the adjusted ranking points remain higher than the points earned at these tournaments when the PPR system was introduced in 2004.

So this helps how???

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by jigglypuff

How will Section tournaments that count for national ranking be affected?
The ranking points earned at the 12 tournaments each Section designates as Levels 3, 4 and 5 will be reduced. This change is an acknowledgment of the inherent flaw in having 17 Sections of different sizes and strengths feeding into one national ranking system. Although reduced, the adjusted ranking points remain higher than the points earned at these tournaments when the PPR system was introduced in 2004.

So this helps how???

Sorry, double comment here.

[tennis5]

http://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/Jun..._point_tables/

The new Tables, which were unanimously approved by the USTA Junior Competition Committee in September with the support of the USTA Player Development Staff, have been revised in two significant ways:

• The point distribution has changed so that ranking points are awarded in a more
progressive manner. Players who advance to the later rounds of a tournament will receive
substantially more points than players who lose in the earlier rounds.

• The total points earned for winning a Level 1 National Ranking tournament, such as a
USTA National Championship, have been significantly increased. The points earned for
winning Level 4 and Level 5 tournaments have been reduced slightly, but remain higher
than when the PPR system was introduced in 2004.



Why has the USTA adjusted the Point Tables?
A goal of the USTA is to promote and reward earned advancement. The progressive nature of the new Ranking Point Tables does this in two ways. Within a Level, the distribution of points among each round’s finishers ensures that players who advance to the later rounds will earn the majority of the points available in a tournament. Across Levels (1-5), the distribution of points for reaching equivalent rounds ensures that players who win at higher levels earn a proportionately greater number of points. By rewarding advancement in these ways, which is supported by American college coaches, it is anticipated that the accuracy of the USTA rankings will be enhanced. In addition, because the new Tables award fewer points for winning fewer rounds, the incentive to travel outside one’s Section or region will be reduced and will encourage play closer to home.

Will there still be a combined ranking of singles and doubles?
There will be no changes to the combined ranking. Under the new Point Tables, players who compete in both singles and doubles and advance to the later rounds of events will earn progressively more ranking points reflecting their competitive success.

Who will this change affect?
The change will affect every player who competes in tournaments that count for national ranking. This is a very positive change for players and will reward players who advance to the later rounds of these tournaments.

How will Section tournaments that count for national ranking be affected?
The ranking points earned at the 12 tournaments each Section designates as Levels 3, 4 and 5 will be reduced. This change is an acknowledgment of the inherent flaw in having 17 Sections of different sizes and strengths feeding into one national ranking system. Although reduced, the adjusted ranking points remain higher than the points earned at these tournaments when the PPR system was introduced in 2004.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW ONE'S JUNIOR GETS INTO A NATIONAL TOURNAMENT (WITHOUT THE WILDCARD.... ) IF YOU HAVE NO NATIONAL POINTS?

ONLY WAY TO PLAY A NATIONAL TOURNAMENT IS TO HAVE NATIONAL POINTS.

WHERE DO YOU GET THEM? SECTIONAL WINS.

BUT, THEY JUST REDUCED THE SECTIONAL POINTS.

WHAT AM I MISSING?

[hound 109]

Originally Posted by klu375

http://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/Jun..._point_tables/

So there will be even more discrepancy between USTA and TR.NET ranking, between top players and the rest. Probably even more kids will be locked out of National tournaments. Sectional play will be made more irrelevant. For L1 there is a quota at least. To consistently play national tournaments you need to jump on the national bandwagon in 12s and try to ride this wave till the end.

I agree with your take klu.

The top 20 kids will be the same on TRN & usta. But for the next 150-200 kids, it will be a "ride the wave" act. Those that understand the system (& their kids deliver) & they'll stay on the board. Others will fall off.

TRN will be a more accurate yardstick for the 50-250 (in the nation) kids than usta. (i just wish they'd include birth months so we can adjust accordingly).

[andfor]

If you're a top player already none of this matters. I believe that playing in the Southern section is more than good enough for us. I can see how those in weaker sections would want more competition and exposure playing nationals/outside their section.

I thought the Regional Nationals was a step in the right direction to reduce travel expenses.

[tennisforlife77]

The USTA is acknowledging the inherent problem in the current system but unfortunately not doing anything to address is. The sectional level 4 and 5 tournament have never had enough points to be meaningful in terms of a national ranking. They are simply the 1st step on the national ladder. Get some national points in your sectional tournaments to qualify for the level 3's, then the level 2's and ultimately the Supernationals. The problem with the current points system and now this new points system is that is does nothing to address disparity in the level of difficulty of getting points in say Florida or So Cal versus one of the smaller sections. Getting to the R16 on the OC Junior Open means 4 wins in a 256 field against tough competition. The small section player may need to win only 1 match to get those points. I'm not sure these new ppr will change the current dynamic as the ratio of points at levels 2-5 seem to have stayed roughly the same in the early rounds but it will be critical now to start playing up as soon as possible using the lower age division places in the level 2's and 3's. If you lose your spot on the ladder it will be very difficult to get it back. If that occurs through injury this seems very unfair. The qualifying tournament suggestion as they have for ITF events seems like a good one which should give more people a chance to get a spot on the ladder particularly later developing players.