Wow, NFL great Junior Seau dead?

[volleygirl]

Reports are he has committed suicide. Sorry to hear this as he was a class act as a player and will definitely make the Hall of Fame. Best wishes to his family.

[LeeD]

Bummer for sure.
I guess, when you're at the top, you can only go downwards.

[JohnnyCracker]

I remember he was the guy who held back Ryan Leaf trying to calm him down when Leaf had that blowup with a reporter. Fast forward...Seau is the one committing suicide.
Life...you just never know.

[LeeD]

Hey guys....
You ever get old?
You know, that age thing. In NFL, "getting old" means losing the step and a half, seeing and knowing, but can't do much about it.
EVERY player get's old. You USED to be able, now you're not.
It's depressing. What's to look forwards to?
Some look forwards to old age. Other's dread old age.

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Hey guys....
You ever get old?
You know, that age thing. In NFL, "getting old" means losing the step and a half, seeing and knowing, but can't do much about it.
EVERY player get's old. You USED to be able, now you're not.
It's depressing. What's to look forwards to?
Some look forwards to old age. Other's dread old age.

Has more to do with the head injuries these guys sustain than the whole 'missing the game' thing, though I'm sure that doesn't help. Dave Duerson was another one who killed himself last year, and they found severe brain damage afterwards. Reports are that Seau shot himself in the chest, so that his brain could be studied afterwards.

The guy also went through a divorce.

[LeeD]

I doubt they miss the game.
What they miss is the adrenaline high.
Can't reproduce that unless you compete.

[tricky]

Depression is kind of the hidden epidemic among both football players and boxers. This is due to the accumulation of brain trauma throughout their career, as jamesblakefan pointed out.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

I doubt they miss the game.
What they miss is the adrenaline high.
Can't reproduce that unless you compete.

Don't tennis player's compete? Why don't many of them commit suicide?

[ollinger]

The research on athlete suicide suggests it's not the loss of athletic ability, aderenaline high, or loss of attention/glory that impacts them. The risk factors that increase suicide generally among men -- divorce, alcohol abuse, lack of employment, chronic pain -- are all very prevalent among retired NFL players, who have a suicide rate six times that of the general population.

[angharad]

Originally Posted by ollinger

The research on athlete suicide suggests it's not the loss of athletic ability, aderenaline high, or loss of attention/glory that impacts them. The risk factors that increase suicide generally among men -- divorce, alcohol abuse, lack of employment, chronic pain -- are all very prevalent among retired NFL players, who have a suicide rate six times that of the general population.

I have to wonder if there's a certain personality type that does well in professional sports that also increases risk of depression. One of the things Marcellus Wiley (ex-teammate and friend of Seau) said earlier today is that Seau never wanted people to see him at anything less than his best. He preferred to be treated by private physicians, not team doctors, so his injuries weren't common knowledge, that sort of thing. That preference for privacy and tendency to 'put on a brave face' would seem to lend itself to being depressed without seeking help, or considering suicide without talking to anyone about it.

Seau always seemed like a decent guy, and I'm sorry this is what he saw as the only way out.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by ollinger

The research on athlete suicide suggests it's not the loss of athletic ability, aderenaline high, or loss of attention/glory that impacts them. The risk factors that increase suicide generally among men -- divorce, alcohol abuse, lack of employment, chronic pain -- are all very prevalent among retired NFL players, who have a suicide rate six times that of the general population.

But is there any data to show that the highlit reasons don't lead to more divorce, alcohol abuse and emotional issues that would impact employability?

It's all valid. Only the overly simplistic would ignore the very atypical lives that NFL retirees have lived, starting well before they ever played Pro ball.

[ollinger]

^^ If loss of attention and glory were important factors, we'd expect to see high suicide rates in former players from other sports as well, and we don't. The suicide rate for current and ex baseball players is quite low, according to data I saw some years ago. I can't offhand recall an ex tennis pro committing suicide. Former players from those sports don't have the high rate of chronic pain seen in football players, don't have as aggressive personality traits, and don't have the cognitive issues from recurrent head trauma.

[Fearsome Forehand]

Originally Posted by ollinger

^^ If loss of attention and glory were important factors, we'd expect to see high suicide rates in former players from other sports as well, and we don't. The suicide rate for current and ex baseball players is quite low, according to data I saw some years ago. I can't offhand recall an ex tennis pro committing suicide. Former players from those sports don't have the high rate of chronic pain seen in football players, don't have as aggressive personality traits, and don't have the cognitive issues from recurrent head trauma.

Unlike tennis or baseball, football is a very violent game and those who are big, or big and fast, and also very good at physical violence excel at football. That propensity to be violent would seem to be as big a factor in the suicide rate of ex-football players as concussions.

Do boxers have a statistically significant higher than average rate of suicide? They should have an ever higher rate of concussions in an even more violent sport. If the argument holds, they should have an even higher rate of suicide than football players.

Don't dentists have a high rate of suicide? What is the cause? We could argue that an obsession with flossing leads to suicide.

Do gun owners have a higher rate of suicide? Does criminality correlate with suicide rate? We are talking about the National Felon League after all. Most of these guys own weapons. And the rate of criminality in the NFL seems much higher than the societal average. I can see the concussions made me do it defense coming soon.

Most people who commit suicide have never played football. Most people who have mental illness (suicidal depression) or otherwise have never played football.

Seau had mental illness problems of some sort. He tried to drive his car off a cliff a few years back. That should have been everyone's first clue.

If the stats indicate someone who has had one or more serious concussions is much more likely to commit suicide than someone who has not maybe there is a correlation.

The NFL Players Union is angling for money and that is a lot of what is driving this argument. Concussions are a hazard of certain sports, just like knee injuries are in other sports, or arm problems are in tennis. No one forces anyone to play a certain sport. It is an individual choice. You play, you pay.

That said, the NFL should make sure they educate players as to the risks of injury, financial management, etc. Unfortunately, most of the players have been coddled all their lives due to their athletic abilities. They are taught that the normal rules don't apply to them and many seem dumber than rocks. Despite making huge sums for a number of years, something like 80% are broke within a few years of retirement. That is very telling.

I would never advise a kid to play organized football unless he is huge, fast and violent as hell because the sport seems to select for those attributes. Tennis is a much better game IMHO.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand

Unlike tennis or baseball, football is a very violent game and those who are big, or big and fast, and also very good at physical violence excel at football. That propensity to be violent would seem to be as big a factor in the suicide rate of ex-football players as concussions.

Do boxers have a statistically significant higher than average rate of suicide? They should have an ever higher rate of concussions in an even more violent sport. If the argument holds, they should have an even higher rate of suicide than football players.

Don't dentists have a high rate of suicide? What is the cause? We could argue that an obsession with flossing leads to suicide.

Do gun owners have a higher rate of suicide? We are talking about the National Felon League after all. Most of these guys own weapons. And the rate of criminality in the NFL seems much higher than the societal average. I can see the concussions made me do it defense coming soon.

Most people who commit suicide who have never played football. Most people who have mental illness (suicidal depression) or otherwise never played football.

Seau had mental illness problems of some sort. He tried to drive his car off a cliff a few years back. That should have been everyone's first clue.

If the stats indicate someone who has had one or more serious concussions is much more likely to commit suicide than someone who has not maybe there is a correlation.

The NFL Players Union is angling for money and that is a lot of what is driving this argument. Concussions are a hazard of certain sports, just like knee injuries are in other sports, or arm problems are in tennis. No one forces anyone to play a certain sport. It is an individual choice. You play, you pay.

That said, the NFL should make sure they educate players as to the risks of injury, financial management, etc. Unfortunatel, most of the players have been coddled all their lives due to their athletic abilities. They are taught that the normal rules don't apply to them and many seem dumber than rocks. Despite making huge sums for a number of years, something like 80% are broke within a few years of retirement. That is very telling.

I would never advise a kid to play organized football unless he is huge, fast and violent as hell because the sport seems to select for those attributes. Tennis is a much better game IMHO.

Did you see there are now over 1,500 former NFL players jumping on the bandwagon to sue the NFL? These guys act like they had no idea it was a dangerous sport to go into. They got paid handsomely, blew all that money, and now want the NFL to pay them again? The NFL is gonna see a huge dropoff in popularity IMO because they are gonna legislate all the hits out of the game to protect themselves from these bogus lawsuits. All the rules are set up to protect the offensive players and to put up more points while the defensive players are expected to gently tackle a 6'7" TE going over the middle. Thats not what made the NFL king.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by ollinger

^^ If loss of attention and glory were important factors, we'd expect to see high suicide rates in former players from other sports as well, and we don't. The suicide rate for current and ex baseball players is quite low, according to data I saw some years ago. I can't offhand recall an ex tennis pro committing suicide. Former players from those sports don't have the high rate of chronic pain seen in football players, don't have as aggressive personality traits, and don't have the cognitive issues from recurrent head trauma.

Three things: Football players (unlike baseball and tennis) retire much, much earlier and therefore the retirement is more a drastic life interuption. Second, in the US they have a much bigger ego buildup in HS and college than baseball and tennis players do (therefore contributing to bigger let down). Cheerleaders at college baseball games and tennis matches? ummm, no.... Lastly, I would argue that football selects for a different calibre of individual, perhaps an individual much less equipped to deal with the issues discussed here than the average tennis player or baseball player, not that they are all thoughtful individuals. I agree about the selection for aggressiveness and head trauma.

[r2473]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yf-uOI3FRE

[jaggy]

Sad on so many levels

[LeeD]

Ollinger, please read what you wrote.
WHY do so many NFL players choose suicide for their release?
You list 3 big reasons, but chose to ignore it.
Research knows nothing, you know that. It can be manipulated, facts hidden, and conclusions diverted by whoever, for whomever.

[ollinger]

Lots of things CAN be manipulated, but it doesn't mean they are. Most research, especially research not involving pharmaceuticals, is reliable. It's been well known for an eternity that the factors that predict suicide include male gender (females make ineffectualy attempts, men use more lethal methods), increasing age, single or divorced, alcohol or drug abuse, lack of employment, and chronic pain. Data show at least two-thirds of former NFL players experience chronic pain of significant degree. The demographics alone here would account for a very high suicide rate. Also, aggressive men tend to use more lethal means, such as guns and ropes, and we know the NFL selects for aggressiveness.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Ollinger, please read what you wrote.
WHY do so many NFL players choose suicide for their release?
You list 3 big reasons, but chose to ignore it.
Research knows nothing, you know that. It can be manipulated, facts hidden, and conclusions diverted by whoever, for whomever.

Then you have to explain why/how it was manipulated.