lol, here's another lovely abuse of the system

jk175d · 05-25-2012, 07:10 AM

same captain as from this other thread

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=425166

So he had another guy on his 4.5 team who when you clicked on his name showed up as 5.0C year end 2010. Turned out that tennis link wasn't up to date, that in fact he had self-rated as a 4.5 after not having played any adult leagues in 2011. But wait... There is a rule that you have to be removed for THREE years before re-entering at a lower rating.

Further digging reveals that he played mixed only in 2011 and signed up as a 4.5M (mixed exclusive).

But there is this rule from USTA website:

"A player who plays exclusively in the USTA League Mixed Doubles Division and subsequently chooses to participate in the USTA League Adult, Senior and/or Super Senior Divisions must enter those Divisions by using a valid computer (C) or benchmark (B) rating from a previous year. "

So as this player falls under the category of having a valid (C) rating from a previous year it seems pretty clear that he should have been required to enter the adult league this year using that (C) rating. Between this rule and the 3 year rule I don't see how he could be allowed to re-enter the adult league self-rating as a 4.5.

I put this question to the Head of USTA tennis in my state. His reply was this:

"The way Mixed Exclusive players were handled prior to this new regulation was this:

Mixed Exclusive overwrote any previous rating you had. So if you had a computer rating and then you got a Mixed rating the following year, your computer rating was wiped. But since Mixed ratings were only valid for Mixed Doubles play, players who were trying to register for any other league were required to self rate again. That became their rating for the rest of the year. The old computer rating does not come into this at all.

With the new regulation, if a player had a computer rating and gets a Mixed rating the following year, it does not wipe out his old computer rating. That actually stays in the background. Since a Mixed rating is still only valid for mixed doubles play, if the player tries to register for any other league, then his rating is to revert to that previous computer rating.

For that to happen, the technology has to match the rule. TennisLink did not have that implemented at the start of 2012. Those we were able to identify who had yet to sign up for a league were changed manually. Those who were identified after registration and the match play, we did not feel justified in making the change to their rating. The NTRP Dynamic rating system would disqualify them if they were significantly out of level."

So the upshot is, yes there is a clear rule, yes it was violated, no it was not enforced.

I'm particularly bothered by the last sentance, because it's almost only people trying to game the system who will be violating this rule, so they are also the ones who will be managing their matches/scores to avoid dynamic rating DQs.

JuliusWinto · 05-25-2012, 10:49 AM

What state? This guy sounds familiar.

jk175d · 05-25-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuliusWinto

What state? This guy sounds familiar.

oh I'm sure there's a guy like this in every league.

christo · 06-02-2012, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jk175d

oh I'm sure there's a guy like this in every league.

you can bet there's more than one lol

SwankPeRFection · 06-03-2012, 08:21 AM

This happens all the time in Atlanta, what's your point? How do you think Atlanta wins so many section champs year after year. Their best practice is cheating the rating system.

10sjunkie · 06-05-2012, 05:14 PM

What he failed to mention is that not only is the player subject to disqualification, but also self-rate grievances. I'm sure that if someone filed a grievance and used the rule and the player's prior rating as evidence, it would be upheld. Just need someone to try it.

JLyon · 06-05-2012, 07:11 PM

I had a 5.0 player who did not get the required 3 matches in 2011, but got a 2011 Mixed Rating of 5.0, he had to self-rate again this year, even though he was a "B" 5.0 in 2010. It is a glitch in the system that does need to be fixed.

tennisjon · 06-09-2012, 05:19 PM

A guy in our 4.5 league self-rated 4.5 even though he is under 30 and played D1 in a major conference. According to USTA guide that makes him a 5.5. He works at the club that the team plays out of. They have since took down references on their website about the player.

Today, the captain of their team complains to my captain that we destroyed their season and they are just trying to compete with us because we are good and that we have players who should be rated higher than 4.5. Meanwhile, everyone on our team is computer rated except for one player who is a 3rd doubles player fill-in. Our players are good, but legal and he complains even though they blatantly cheated. His comments to my captain border on abuse and intimidation. Sour grapes?

tennis_tater · 06-09-2012, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisjon

A guy in our 4.5 league self-rated 4.5 even though he is under 30 and played D1 in a major conference. According to USTA guide that makes him a 5.5. He works at the club that the team plays out of. They have since took down references on their website about the player.

Today, the captain of their team complains to my captain that we destroyed their season and they are just trying to compete with us because we are good and that we have players who should be rated higher than 4.5. Meanwhile, everyone on our team is computer rated except for one player who is a 3rd doubles player fill-in. Our players are good, but legal and he complains even though they blatantly cheated. His comments to my captain border on abuse and intimidation. Sour grapes?

Just curious, but are your players legal simply because they are computer rated, or did they not answer the self rate questions honestly themselves when they self rated, but simply slid under the radar?

tennisjon · 06-09-2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis_tater

Just curious, but are your players legal simply because they are computer rated, or did they answer the self rate questions honestly themselves when they self rated, but simply slid under the radar?

They all filled out the forms legally. There is one guy in question on my team who is really good, but is not from the US and never played college tennis or had high junior ranking. He played for a rival team in another league for a year and was computer rated. We became friends and asked him to join my team last year. This is now his third season. We have people on the team who are 4.5 now and were computer rated 4.0s but over the years improved and got bumped to 4.5. We turn down people every year because we know they will wind up being rated too high. Everything is kosher, they are just ****ed because they think we cheat (but we don't) and they got caught.

There is another self-rate guy in the league who might even be better than the guy in question, but he has no past history that can be found that proves he should be higher than 4.5 except to watch him play for yourself. It is what it is. Maybe he gets 3 strikes, maybe he gets bumped for next season. But, as far as I can tell, he didn't lie on his self-rate form.

The other team should have rated their guy legally and then appealed the rating.

tennisjon · 06-10-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisjon

There is another self-rate guy in the league who might even be better than the guy in question, but he has no past history that can be found that proves he should be higher than 4.5 except to watch him play for yourself. It is what it is. Maybe he gets 3 strikes, maybe he gets bumped for next season. But, as far as I can tell, he didn't lie on his self-rate form.

The other team should have rated their guy legally and then appealed the rating.

Update: This guy got DQ today in every match except the match against the team with the illegal player (who has yet to get DQ).

J_R_B · 06-11-2012, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisjon

The other team should have rated their guy legally and then appealed the rating.

Are you sure they didn't? Self-rating appeals still show up as S-rated, not A, in TennisLink.

J_R_B · 06-09-2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis_tater

Just curious, but are your players legal simply because they are computer rated, or did they not answer the self rate questions honestly themselves when they self rated, but simply slid under the radar?

I'm not sure if Jon is referring to his Eastern or Middle States team, but I know the MS 4.5 league that he plays in, and I can attest that their team is 100% legit. They have the best team in the league because they have the best 4.5 players in the area. They are NOT recruiting self-rated D1 or high school superstars just for the sake of winning. They have a team of long time USTA league players that have been 4.5 rated for years.

06-11-2012, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisjon

A guy in our 4.5 league self-rated 4.5 even though he is under 30 and played D1 in a major conference. According to USTA guide that makes him a 5.5. He works at the club that the team plays out of. They have since took down references on their website about the player.

Today, the captain of their team complains to my captain that we destroyed their season and they are just trying to compete with us because we are good and that we have players who should be rated higher than 4.5. Meanwhile, everyone on our team is computer rated except for one player who is a 3rd doubles player fill-in. Our players are good, but legal and he complains even though they blatantly cheated. His comments to my captain border on abuse and intimidation. Sour grapes?

how do you keep your obviously 5.0 guys at 4.5 on the computer? what have you figured out that others haven't about how to game the system?

goober · 06-11-2012, 07:07 AM

Our 4.5 leagues fell apart because one team was recruiting current JC players. The thing was this was not any regular JC team. It was nationally top ranked team with a lot of foreign and some US players. Most of the team would eventually transfer to D1and D2 colleges. Under the new guidelines JC players under the age of 25 could rate 4.5, but these guys were are at least 5.0 and some maybe 5.5. So all the other teams basically just stopped fielding teams since they didn't have this pipeline.

tennisjon · 06-11-2012, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by decades

how do you keep your obviously 5.0 guys at 4.5 on the computer? what have you figured out that others haven't about how to game the system?

We don't. Our self-rated guys are legit 4.5 players, they usually happen to be high 4.5. We make sure we put together the right lineups based on styles of play and the teams we are playing against. The computer rated guys are computer rated. We don't worry about them. If they get bumped because they have been overly successful, then they helped serve our team. In general, though, you are less likely to get bumped playing doubles. In our league the best players usually play doubles.

10smonkey · 06-11-2012, 08:41 AM

this is why i play in a "open" league

06-11-2012, 06:17 AM

someone taking advantage of the massive holes in the USTA ratings system? I am stunned.

05-25-2012, 07:10 AM	#1
jk175d Semi-Pro Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 552	lol, here's another lovely abuse of the system same captain as from this other thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=425166 So he had another guy on his 4.5 team who when you clicked on his name showed up as 5.0C year end 2010. Turned out that tennis link wasn't up to date, that in fact he had self-rated as a 4.5 after not having played any adult leagues in 2011. But wait... There is a rule that you have to be removed for THREE years before re-entering at a lower rating. Further digging reveals that he played mixed only in 2011 and signed up as a 4.5M (mixed exclusive). But there is this rule from USTA website: "A player who plays exclusively in the USTA League Mixed Doubles Division and subsequently chooses to participate in the USTA League Adult, Senior and/or Super Senior Divisions must enter those Divisions by using a valid computer (C) or benchmark (B) rating from a previous year. " So as this player falls under the category of having a valid (C) rating from a previous year it seems pretty clear that he should have been required to enter the adult league this year using that (C) rating. Between this rule and the 3 year rule I don't see how he could be allowed to re-enter the adult league self-rating as a 4.5. I put this question to the Head of USTA tennis in my state. His reply was this: "The way Mixed Exclusive players were handled prior to this new regulation was this: Mixed Exclusive overwrote any previous rating you had. So if you had a computer rating and then you got a Mixed rating the following year, your computer rating was wiped. But since Mixed ratings were only valid for Mixed Doubles play, players who were trying to register for any other league were required to self rate again. That became their rating for the rest of the year. The old computer rating does not come into this at all. With the new regulation, if a player had a computer rating and gets a Mixed rating the following year, it does not wipe out his old computer rating. That actually stays in the background. Since a Mixed rating is still only valid for mixed doubles play, if the player tries to register for any other league, then his rating is to revert to that previous computer rating. For that to happen, the technology has to match the rule. TennisLink did not have that implemented at the start of 2012. Those we were able to identify who had yet to sign up for a league were changed manually. Those who were identified after registration and the match play, we did not feel justified in making the change to their rating. The NTRP Dynamic rating system would disqualify them if they were significantly out of level." So the upshot is, yes there is a clear rule, yes it was violated, no it was not enforced. I'm particularly bothered by the last sentance, because it's almost only people trying to game the system who will be violating this rule, so they are also the ones who will be managing their matches/scores to avoid dynamic rating DQs. __________________ EXO3 Tour 100 16x18 gut mains @ 51, poly crosses @ 43 (Wilson NG 17) , (Solinco Outlast 17)

06-05-2012, 07:11 PM	#7
JLyon Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: AR Posts: 2,294	I had a 5.0 player who did not get the required 3 matches in 2011, but got a 2011 Mixed Rating of 5.0, he had to self-rate again this year, even though he was a "B" 5.0 in 2010. It is a glitch in the system that does need to be fixed. __________________ Dunlop Bio 300 48/53 lbs. A cruel joke by USTA putting my 4.0 butt at 5.0 for future butt kickings

06-09-2012, 05:19 PM	#8
tennisjon Semi-Pro Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: West Orange, NJ Posts: 612	A guy in our 4.5 league self-rated 4.5 even though he is under 30 and played D1 in a major conference. According to USTA guide that makes him a 5.5. He works at the club that the team plays out of. They have since took down references on their website about the player. Today, the captain of their team complains to my captain that we destroyed their season and they are just trying to compete with us because we are good and that we have players who should be rated higher than 4.5. Meanwhile, everyone on our team is computer rated except for one player who is a 3rd doubles player fill-in. Our players are good, but legal and he complains even though they blatantly cheated. His comments to my captain border on abuse and intimidation. Sour grapes? __________________ M&W Coach, Drew University. Pro Kennex Ki-5x(R) & Babolat Aeropro Drive GT+(L) Dunlop Black Widow 17 (62lb) Babolat N.Vy 16 (64lb) USTA 4.5.

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