slice serve - pronate or no pronate?

[luvforty]

pros and cons?

preference?

[Fuji]

I pronate on all my serves, regardless of what spin I'm hitting.

Why wouldn't you pronate?

-Fuji

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by Fuji

I pronate on all my serves, regardless of what spin I'm hitting.

Why wouldn't you pronate?

-Fuji

feels like there is better directional control with the no-pronate chop version.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by luvforty

feels like there is better directional control with the no-pronate chop version.

How so? With a slice you're just "carving" the out side of the ball. I don't think pronation is something you do consciously, it just happens with a smooth motion to my knowledge at least.

-Fuji

[Costagirl]

Originally Posted by luvforty

feels like there is better directional control with the no-pronate chop version.

agreed I can count on getting it in and also putting it where I want it without pronation. Slice that is!!

[TheCheese]

I just pronate less, but I still pronate.

[boramiNYC]

you want to use full pronation for any serve to maintain consistent high racquet head speed. the swingpath and the racquet head control around the contact point can be varied for control (amount and direction of spin and through component).

what people often don't realize is that the variation at the contact that results in wide or T serves is smaller than usually perceived. The full variation can be achieved by racquet control within the pronation.

[Chas Tennis]

https://vimeo.com/27528347

This is a slice serve as indicated by:
1) the racket motion- mostly across the back of the ball
2) the label of the ball can be seen spinning in mostly a horizontal direction. (better seen in my copy than on Vimeo)
3) the ball has the characteristic slice trajectory curve and bounce for a right handed server.

The rapid internal shoulder rotation can be seen by looking at the rotation (axial) of the bones of the elbow.

I'm not able to see pronation before impact in this high speed video. However, I'm sure some pronation occurs on all serves before impact, possibly completed prior to the ISR. The server has a watch on; it's useful as a marker for total arm rotation at the wrist. When the arm is straight the total arm rotation is -

Total Arm Rotation Rate (at wrist) = ISR + Pronation.

If the rotation rate at the wrist is different than the ISR rate then that is pronation (or supination). In my opinion, the total rotation rate leading to impact might be due just to ISR. Needs better high speed videos with markers to measure.

I'm sure you can slice serve by carving on the outside of the ball, as Fuji describes, but this video is more of a rapid brush across the ball, exact angle not clear.

(The best stop-action single-frame can be done on Vimeo by pressing the play-pause button as fast as possible. I can't view Vimeo videos on my Samsung Galaxy S2 smartphone.)

[boramiNYC]

^^^in that vid I can clearly see pronation. at trophy the hand is neutral but the upward thrust of the shoulder leads supination of the hand and rapid pronation through contact. Of course ESR/ISR is present as well.

typically 'pronation' in serve indicate not the pronated position of the hand but rotation of the hand toward the pronated hand position from neutral or supinated position.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

^^^in that vid I can clearly see pronation. at trophy the hand is neutral but the upward thrust of the shoulder leads supination of the hand and rapid pronation through contact. Of course ESR/ISR is present as well.

typically 'pronation' in serve indicate not the pronated position of the hand but rotation of the hand toward the pronated hand position from neutral or supinated position.

I'm sure pronation and supination occur early in the service motion, at trophy position, etc. but have not looked much at that.

Where does the final racket head speed come from?

After the arm is straight and the racket has very little racket head speed toward the ball, in other words, when the racket head acceleration is about to start, I can clearly see forceful ISR (humerus rotation) but I cannot observe pronation (forearm only rotation) because it is too difficult or small to see.

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

https://vimeo.com/27528347

The racquet faces towards the right net post on the follow through, so I believe there is pronation occurring.

When I think of the question posed in this thread "hitting a slice serve without pronation", I take it to mean hitting a slice serve with the racquet face never facing towards the right net post on the follow through (purely carving the ball).

Is that a correct interpretation?

[luvforty]

I should have clarified a little -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...xaM5a80#t=155s

here he talks about the finish of a slice serve, so I guess another way to ask the question is do you finish (when the hand comes down to waist level) with

1) hand facing body? (or more extreme case, facing the ground)

2) hand facing the sky?

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

https://vimeo.com/27528347

This is a slice serve as indicated by:
1) the racket motion- mostly across the back of the ball
2) the label of the ball can be seen spinning in mostly a horizontal direction. (better seen in my copy than on Vimeo)
3) the ball has the characteristic slice trajectory curve and bounce for a right handed server.

The rapid internal shoulder rotation can be seen by looking at the rotation (axial) of the bones of the elbow.

I'm not able to see pronation before impact in this high speed video. However, I'm sure some pronation occurs on all serves before impact, possibly completed prior to the ISR. The server has a watch on; it's useful as a marker for total arm rotation at the wrist. When the arm is straight the total arm rotation is -

Total Arm Rotation Rate (at wrist) = ISR + Pronation.

If the rotation rate at the wrist is different than the ISR rate then that is pronation (or supination). In my opinion, the total rotation rate leading to impact might be due just to ISR. Needs better high speed videos with markers to measure.

I'm sure you can slice serve by carving on the outside of the ball, as Fuji describes, but this video is more of a rapid brush across the ball, exact angle not clear.

(The best stop-action single-frame can be done on Vimeo by pressing the play-pause button as fast as possible. I can't view Vimeo videos on my Samsung Galaxy S2 smartphone.)

Haha, it's hard to describe how in my mind I slice. The way I learned to slice off a serve was something like "peel the apple" by carving/brushing along the side of the ball.

-Fuji

[Relinquis]

thanks chas... i try to keep my arm a loose as possible and allow it to move naturally as much as i can. i feel the less stress i put on my joints the better my serve.

[LeeD]

Either way, but the more advanced is with some pronation. You do not need pronation to hit a basic beginner kick or twist serve, just chop away up and out.

[SystemicAnomaly]

There should be some pronation prior to contact for the slice serve. This arm should be supinated previously so that the the racket edge leads coming up from the "scratch" position. The forearm/racket is pronated enough to present the strings to the ball in order to brush it for a glancing blow. Obviously, the arm/racket are not pronated as much prior to contact as with a flatter server -- where the racket face is squared up to meet the ball.

On a slice serve, much of the pronation of the forearm/racket actually happens after contact. This is done to minimize stress to the arm on the follow-thru most likely.

[toly]

Here is picture of Salazar slice serve from above.



See also FYB original video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMgQWotcPYE.

Picture and video demonstrate that the arm pronation (Internal Shoulder Rotation + Forearm Pronation) rotates the racquet roughly 70°. In case of high angular speed of ball sidespin (good slice serve) there should be no arm pronation after contact.

[luvforty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AshpV0lddGo

Serena - no pronate slice.

[Cheetah]

serena clearly pronates there dozu. every pro pronates on every serve.

[toly]

Originally Posted by luvforty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AshpV0lddGo

Serena - no pronate slice.

This website - http://www.fawcette.net/2011/10/sere...ice-serve.html agrees with you.