NTRP Year-End ratings?

[bleach]

Is the rating system flawed? It sure is... Is it flawed because I decided to play within the rules use the tools that are provided (appeals). No way!

Everyone wants to get to the next level, whether the next level for them is Sectionals/Nationals or 4.0/4.5... The dynamic rating system has given people a way to see how they are advancing. I am honored to see my rating get bumped up. But with the appeals process, you can't truly feel like you have advanced unless you have your appeal denied. The system has just created this situation. Last year, I did not appeal and felt like I didn't really belong. I knew without a doubt that I would win an appeal if I tried.

For the first time ever, this season I'm playing on a team that has hopes to go beyond local league play (last season team went to sectionals-- not with me). I decided to play and make to goal to go as far as possible.

I really think that it is funny that you (or someone) is questioning my morals because I decided to appeal within the rules. In three years I have played over 100 league matches, I have been bumped 4 times (3 up/1 down) and have appealed once. If we are going to rely on a computer to determine the rating we play under, then let the computer decide.

[Geezer Guy]

Originally Posted by Jack the Hack

If I understand the system correctly, bleach has a computer generated rating that lies somwhere between 3.51 and 3.55, which would mean he is technically a 4.0 (because they round up anything beyond the half point). From his own admission, he seems to compete well with players with a true computer generated 3.5 rating, but does not compete favorably with true 4.0 rated players.

I understand the comments that he should want to challenge himself at the next level. However, there is a big difference between a 3.51 and a 3.90+... so much so that he would probably struggle to get games in a set. Given that, if his whole goal is to participate and have fun, he might have a hard time finding a 4.0 team to play on (which is what he's indicated).

I don't really have a problem with the type of situation that bleach is talking about. If you are playing tons of matches, do not cheat the system (ie, you play to win every time), and you have a computer generated rating, you are what you are. In that sense, with the DQ comment, he was saying "if the system really thinks I am a 4.0, then that is great."

...

I'm not bagging on bleach - he appears to be playing by the letter of the law (if maybe not the spirit). Howere, he said he was UNDEFEATED in 3.5 play and has a 2-4 record against 4.0 players. That tells me that with just a LITTLE improvement he could be 3-3 against 4.0 players, and who knows HOW much better he would get playing against the big boys? But, he chooses to stay at 3.5 where he can rack up the easy wins. He would certainly be in for tougher matches in the 4.0 league and he'd have to suffer some losses, but it might be better for his game.

I understand how he feels though - it's no fun going from being one of the best guys on the team to someone who's just trying to MAKE the team.

[Ronaldo]

Come on, you could win your serve at 3.5 just by getting it in and WALKING OFF the court, the return is in the net or out. Return the ball to the server and LEAVE, he will miss the 1st volley or half-volley. Taken bets on how quickly the matches are over. Lost the bet, ours took 35 minutes.

[Geezer Guy]

That is usually not true of a match between two 3.5 players.
That would only be true if one or the other was either WAY above or WAY below the 3.5 level.

[bleach]

Ok let me explain myself one more time....

I do push myself and want to advance. I'm a 4.0 team captain, I put myself (undeservingly) at singles against "big boys", I'm not afraid of losing. If I was, I would have died by now. My goal is to make it to a true 4.0 player, not a border-line player. I also have a goal to help my team (3.5) win the local-league, regional, sectionals.... To do this you (as well as your teammates) have to rack up lots of wins (some easy, some not). With a lot of wins, you end up getting bumped up. To keep your team together, you appeal. Again it's what your goals are. I commented to helping my team advance (win), to do that I need to be on the team, but only using legal, ethical, moral means of doing so.

Again I don't understand the "not playing by the spirit of the law" comment. If I was hiding out, playing #3, sitting out against better players or not doing my best everytime you could accuse me of that... and easy wins... yeah I keep waiting for one of those!

[Jack the Hack]

Originally Posted by bleach

Ok let me explain myself one more time....

I do push myself and want to advance. I'm a 4.0 team captain, I put myself (undeservingly) at singles against "big boys", I'm not afraid of losing. If I was, I would have died by now. My goal is to make it to a true 4.0 player, not a border-line player. I also have a goal to help my team (3.5) win the local-league, regional, sectionals.... To do this you (as well as your teammates) have to rack up lots of wins (some easy, some not). With a lot of wins, you end up getting bumped up. To keep your team together, you appeal. Again it's what your goals are. I commented to helping my team advance (win), to do that I need to be on the team, but only using legal, ethical, moral means of doing so.

Again I don't understand the "not playing by the spirit of the law" comment. If I was hiding out, playing #3, sitting out against better players or not doing my best everytime you could accuse me of that... and easy wins... yeah I keep waiting for one of those!

Bleach,

As I have mentioned before, I don't have a problem with computer rated players that have long records and do not dodge matches (or otherwise mess with the system) like yourself.

I don't think that there is anything ethically wrong ("spirit of the law" or otherwise) with what you are doing. You are on the borderline between 3.5 and 4.0, and under the system, if you are between 3.51 and 3.55, you automatically qualify to stay at 3.5. Players in the 3.01 to 3.39 range will gripe because you likely are more consistant than them, but you should have tough matches with those in the 3.4 to 3.5 range like yourself. Another way of looking at it would be that if you played nothing but fellow players in the 3.4 to 3.5 range, your record would probably be around the .500 mark.

(That's why the "unbeaten in 3.5" claim doesn't concern me; you might have played nothing but weak 3.5ers, or 3.0 players playing up. Also, the 4.0 players you played might have been on the low end of the spectrum, or were also really 3.5ers like yourself.)

As for winning districts, sectionals, and nationals, the fact is that you could load your entire team roster with players that are on the borderline between 3.5 and 4.0 like yourself, and you still probably wouldn't go to nationals (much less win there) because of unethical teams that outright cheat with one of these methods:

1.) Recruiting self rated players that are 1-3 levels higher, and hiding them in doubles, only using them for the minimum amount of time before playoffs. (Usually requires players to lie on the self evaluation form, which happens quite often with former college players.)

2.) Purposely throwing matches to avoid strikes or to game the system to generate lower ratings. (Some teams plan their national championship runs years in advance and game the system in their favor to build a team.)

3.) With advanced planning, have a player self-rate 3 or more levels below their true level, play a year at the low level, and then get the computer rated bump to the next level (even if it is still 2 levels lower than where they should be.) For example, recruit a 5.0 player to play at 3.5 for a year. The computer or three strikes system should catch him, but it will not bump him up more than one level. Viola! Now he has a "legitimate" 4.0 computer rating, even if he is really a 5.0.

I have personally seen all of these tactics used in the past two years from teams that have gone to nationals from the section I live in. If you were one of those types on here trying to justify yourself, I would certainly be leveraging a lot of criticism also!

[Ronaldo]

Originally Posted by Geezer Guy

That is usually not true of a match between two 3.5 players.
That would only be true if one or the other was either WAY above or WAY below the 3.5 level.

Geez, that happened this year in a 4.0 dubs match and one of our opponents was rated 4.0. And my partner is over 70! On clay! On a cool evening! No sun! No wind! Free beer if you win or lose! Only griping because it is hard to break into our 4.0 team line-up, only play when we travel.

[Jack the Hack]

Originally Posted by Ronaldo

Geez, that happened this year in a 4.0 dubs match and one of our opponents was rated 4.0. And my partner is over 70! On clay! On a cool evening! No sun! No wind! Free beer if you win or lose! Only griping because it is hard to break into our 4.0 team line-up, only play when we travel.

Well, as the opposite of some of the people who cheat, there are some players that are living on old, expired, over-inflated ratings from years ago... or self rate much higher than they really are. They do not play enough to have the results effect their rating either way, and they just hang on for years at the wrong level to have a chance to say they are on a good team or have a good rating.

I'm at the lower end of the 4.5 spectrum right now (and was rated 4.0 last year), but there are several players on my club's 4.5 and 5.0 teams that I absolutely destroy in singles (or doubles for that matter). Almost any solid 4.0 singles player would beat these guys easily, but they have been rated 4.5 or higher for years and the system will never drop them because they only play a couple sanctioned doubles matches per year. On the other hand, I've played over 100 matches in the past two years between a combination of tournaments and league play and have a 76-29 record. If you are seriously playing a lot of matches, you are going to have a huge advantage over the pretenders that only show up occassionally, regardless of relative rating levels. I'm betting that the two guys you thumped in doubles were pretenders...