can a vibration dampener affect tennis elbow?

[10ispro]

http://www.stms.nl/december2005/default.html

From the literature
String Vibration Dampers Do Not Reduce Racket Frame Vibration Transfer to the Forearm
Li FX, Fewtrell D, Jenkins M.
J Sports Sci. 2004;22(11-12):1041-52.


In this study, the effect of string vibration damping devices on reducing racket frame vibration transfer to the forearm were examined. Twenty participants volunteered to hold a tennis racket stationary in a forehand and backhand stroking position while tennis balls were fired at 20 m·s-1 towards two impact locations, the node of vibration and the dead spot. A three-way analysis of variance with repeated measures on damping condition, impact location and stroke condition was performed on the data. The resonant frequency of the hand-held racket was found to be approximately 120 Hz. No significant differences in amplitude of vibration at the resonant frequency were found for the wrist or the elbow when damped and non-damped impacts were compared. Impacts at the dead spot produced greater amplitudes of vibration (P < 0.01) but no interaction between impact location and string dampers was evident. The string dampers had no effect on the grip force used or the muscle electrical activity in the forearm after impact. In conclusion, we found that string dampers do not reduce the amount of racket frame vibration received at the forearm. We suggest that string dampers remain a popular accessory among tennis players because of their acoustic effects and psychological support rather than any mechanical advantage.

[D-man]

Originally Posted by 10ispro

http://www.stms.nl/december2005/default.html

From the literature
String Vibration Dampers Do Not Reduce Racket Frame Vibration Transfer to the Forearm
Li FX, Fewtrell D, Jenkins M.
J Sports Sci. 2004;22(11-12):1041-52.


In this study, the effect of string vibration damping devices on reducing racket frame vibration transfer to the forearm were examined. Twenty participants volunteered to hold a tennis racket stationary in a forehand and backhand stroking position while tennis balls were fired at 20 m·s-1 towards two impact locations, the node of vibration and the dead spot. A three-way analysis of variance with repeated measures on damping condition, impact location and stroke condition was performed on the data. The resonant frequency of the hand-held racket was found to be approximately 120 Hz. No significant differences in amplitude of vibration at the resonant frequency were found for the wrist or the elbow when damped and non-damped impacts were compared. Impacts at the dead spot produced greater amplitudes of vibration (P < 0.01) but no interaction between impact location and string dampers was evident. The string dampers had no effect on the grip force used or the muscle electrical activity in the forearm after impact. In conclusion, we found that string dampers do not reduce the amount of racket frame vibration received at the forearm. We suggest that string dampers remain a popular accessory among tennis players because of their acoustic effects and psychological support rather than any mechanical advantage.

I know some people will not be convinced no matter what I say, but this study is, in my opinion, far from conclusive, or even really scientific, and is quite arrogant and condescending in its authoritative tone. So some 20 players held a racket with a ball hitting the strings. First, I don't think that accurately reproduces the dynamics of a full swing, especially on a mis-hit. What level were the players, and how good was their form? With good form less vibration is transferred. What rackets did the players use? What dampeners were used? I've tried many dampener styles, and they all feel very different to me. What strings were used? Some strings transmit more vibration to the frame.

For me, of course, my own experience is more powerful since I am not the kind of person to deceive myself. I do have a rather scientific mind and I never be dishonest about what I feel. Dampeners make a signficant difference for me in the whole feel of a stroke, not just the sound. Also, I have experienced with them in all different ways for many years. I suffer from various arm aches due to my poor technique, and they have definitely helped me. In one experiment I tried, my whole arm vibrated and ached without the dampening device, but with it all was well. Scientific studies be damned, I know I am not making it up or having a placebo effect.

So all in all, the most naysayers seem to be people that have no arm troubles anyway, and have never even extensively tested this. I wonder why they want to be so vociferous? But for those who are interested I think there is enough personal testimony to give it a try. Rubberbands work good. I actually most often use two fat rubberbands and a circular dampener in-between.

[scotus]

Originally Posted by 10ispro

The string dampers had no effect on the grip force used or the muscle electrical activity in the forearm after impact. In conclusion, we found that string dampers do not reduce the amount of racket frame vibration received at the forearm. We suggest that string dampers remain a popular accessory among tennis players because of their acoustic effects and psychological support rather than any mechanical advantage.

As I mentioned previously, try the Babolat RVS. It dampens the frame vibration.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/desc...BAB-BRVSD.html

[chess9]

Originally Posted by scotus

As I mentioned previously, try the Babolat RVS. It dampens the frame vibration.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/desc...BAB-BRVSD.html

Ok. I just looked at that puppy and it may actually work, but a frame is nothing but a series of vibrating nodes summed into one vibrating super node that transmits shock waves through the handle into the hand and up the arm. That device by Bablolat is, I assume, dampening string vibration entering the frame, or attempting to. To dampen the whole frame with that device is not, I think, possible. It is possible that it actually does SOME dampening, which might help TE, so I'm quizzical but unconvinced.

I will defer to the real physicists on board as it's been over 40 years since I got my physics degree and have never used it.

-Robert

[scotus]

Originally Posted by chess9

O
That device by Bablolat is, I assume, dampening string vibration entering the frame, or attempting to. To dampen the whole frame with that device is not, I think, possible. It is possible that it actually does SOME dampening, which might help TE, so I'm quizzical but unconvinced.

No one is claiming that the device dampens the frame vibration completely, and I am not here to convince you of anything.

But those of you who are actually suffering from TE might be willing to shell out a few bucks and try this external device while Robert here waits for some physicist to publish a study in a peer-reviewed journal.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by cghipp

It must be the most long-term placebo effect in medical history. Without the dampener, my arm is more sore from my wrist to my shoulder. I will take the most obvious cause as the most likely one.

That doesn't sound like Tennis Elbow...

I'm happy you're painfree, though.

[Kevin T]

I believe this was discussed in Tennis Mag many years ago. Stringbed vibration does not cause tennis elbow. And there is a difference between VIBRATION and SHOCK. To put it simply, how can a few gram piece of rubber negate the shock when a 2oz tennis ball strikes the stringbed of a 10-13oz racquet at a high rate of speed? I'm no physicist but it makes sense to me. PK's kinetic system, on the other hand, does seem to work.

[LuckyR]

Since personal experience is going for proof here is my personal experience.

I used to use vibe dampeners for no specific reason. They came with the racquet and looked OK, so I used them. A number of years back after an extremely long lay off, I bought a newer and "better" (read: stiffer), racquet. Boom! TE, really bad, really quick. Rested my arm, but as soon as I used that stick, it was back. Took Motrin, no help. Did some research ( www.racquetresearch.com ) Dumped the pain-stick and got a ProKennex 5G. Arm was 80% better. I really wanted to be pain free though. But couldn't get that last 20%. Got ****ed and frustrated and said screw it! I'm going to use free weights even though it hurt to use them. 2 weeks later no pain to this day.

Here's the rub, after about 6 months of being painfree, I read a post on this board about someone noticing more feedback from their racquet with the dampener off (the 5G is very dead feeling BTW), and that it helped their game. So I removed mine and agreed. Hasn't been put back on and the pain hasn't been back either.

[cghipp]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

That doesn't sound like Tennis Elbow...

No, I don't have tennis elbow. I get the occasional twinge of it, but for the most part I have problems with tendinitis in my wrist and shoulder. It's exascerbated by working on the computer all the time and playing tennis.

[scotus]

Originally Posted by Kevin T

I believe this was discussed in Tennis Mag many years ago. Stringbed vibration does not cause tennis elbow. And there is a difference between VIBRATION and SHOCK. To put it simply, how can a few gram piece of rubber negate the shock when a 2oz tennis ball strikes the stringbed of a 10-13oz racquet at a high rate of speed? I'm no physicist but it makes sense to me. PK's kinetic system, on the other hand, does seem to work.

I agree with you that PK kinetic system seems to work, which is why I bought one. But it also seems to me that whatever particles inside those PK racquets that supposedly counter the shock and vibration weigh no more than a few grams. And to my knowledge, no physicist has published an article in a peer-reviewed journal that proves that this kinetic system works for TE sufferers.

Look. Whatever shock annd vibration the frame gets from the ball must be transmitted through the strings, unless you hit a frame shot. And I am not even making the argument that a string vibration dampener will make a big difference to TE.

I am merely pointing out the fact that the Babolat gadget, which is placed on the frame itself as well as on the strings, claims to dampen the frame vibration and that I find that it helps quite a bit. And it is my arm that notices the difference, not my ear.

[kevhen]

Frame will vibrate alot more without the dampener which can be an annoying feeling and noisy too.

[scotus]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Did some research ( www.racquetresearch.com ) Dumped the pain-stick and got a ProKennex 5G. Arm was 80% better.

Have you noticed that some of racquetresearch.com''s findings contradict their own "formula" for an arm-friendly racquet?

What I mean is this. They advocate a heavier, head-lighter, flexier, standard-sized racquet, right? (or maybe not. It has been a long time since I visited that site).

But their ranking shows that some of the lighter racquets such as Yonex MP-3i and Prince TT Warriors take the top spots.

What about their claim that they modified a Wilson Hammer to make the best arm-friendly racquet? And they did this by lengthening the frame! Go figure.

[scotus]

Okay, I just revisited the racquetresearch.com briefly, and they don't make the claim that longer racquets are necessarily bad for TE.

Nonetheless, how a 28-in tail-weighted Hammer makes the most arm-friendly racquet is not easy to believe.

[chess9]

Originally Posted by scotus

Okay, I just revisited the racquetresearch.com briefly, and they don't make the claim that longer racquets are necessarily bad for TE.

Nonetheless, how a 28-in tail-weighted Hammer makes the most arm-friendly racquet is not easy to believe.

Yes, that's a recipe for disaster if you have an iffy elbow. I'd get tennis elbow with that kinda' stick.

-Robert

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by scotus

Okay, I just revisited the racquetresearch.com briefly, and they don't make the claim that longer racquets are necessarily bad for TE.

Nonetheless, how a 28-in tail-weighted Hammer makes the most arm-friendly racquet is not easy to believe.

I won't speak for them, but my understanding was that by tailweighting the Hammer, you ended up with it's unweighted opposite, ie a heavy, head light racquet.

[heycal]

Originally Posted by chess9

Yes, that's a recipe for disaster if you have an iffy elbow. I'd get tennis elbow with that kinda' stick.

-Robert

Others might. Not you.

Personally, I find racquetresearch to be of some interest on this subject, but not wholly reliable.

Originally Posted by LuckyR

I won't speak for them, but my understanding was that by tailweighting the Hammer, you ended up with it's unweighted opposite, ie a heavy, head light racquet.

Can you tell us your exact weight routine, LuckyR, and how you think it might have helped your Te? (I think we talked about this before, but I've forgotten.)

Here's my two cents on this all: I play with a 5g. I don't find it all that helpful for TE. I use a vibe dampener just because there seems little reason not to, but I don't think it makes a difference either way. I have not tried this specific Baboloat one referred to above, but I'll probably put it on my list of devices and gimmicks to waste money on during my TE saga...

[chess9]

Oops! I goofed. I misread "tail weighted" as head heavy. Don't ask how I can be that dumb. Ok, shoot me. So, that would probably be a head light racquet (duh, genius at work here). Good enough for a lot of people, though 28 inches is a big stick.

-Robert

[heycal]

Originally Posted by chess9

Oops! I goofed. I misread "tail weighted" as head heavy. Don't ask how I can be that dumb. Ok, shoot me. So, that would probably be a head light racquet (duh, genius at work here).

I don't think you're going to be banned for the mistake, Robert. We forgive you. After all, Serena Williams is a bit tail-weighted, but the announcers sometimes refer to her as Venus, who is not particularly tail-weighted, during the play by play, and both use head-heavy Hammer-type rackets. It's easy to get confused here...

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by heycal

Others might. Not you.

Personally, I find racquetresearch to be of some interest on this subject, but not wholly reliable.



Can you tell us your exact weight routine, LuckyR, and how you think it might have helped your Te? (I think we talked about this before, but I've forgotten.)

Here's my two cents on this all: I play with a 5g. I don't find it all that helpful for TE. I use a vibe dampener just because there seems little reason not to, but I don't think it makes a difference either way. I have not tried this specific Baboloat one referred to above, but I'll probably put it on my list of devices and gimmicks to waste money on during my TE saga...

I am using travlrajm's medium old setup (the last time I asked him, he was currently removing not only the lead from the tail, but also some racquet plastic from the tail, ie moving the balance more Head Heavy, I was a bit concerned about my elbow <I don't believe he takes that into consideration, personally. I think he is performance oriented only>) on a PK Ionic 5 (not the 5G). That is: a little lead at the tail, a full strip (which is split for each side from about 8 o clock to 4 o clock <starting and stopping at the 4th cross>) and a double strip at 12 o clock.


He has posted a number of times about it in the racquet section, but it may have been awhile ago.

[heycal]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

I am using travlrajm's medium old setup (the last time I asked him, he was currently removing not only the lead from the tail, but also some racquet plastic from the tail, ie moving the balance more Head Heavy, I was a bit concerned about my elbow <I don't believe he takes that into consideration, personally. I think he is performance oriented only>) on a PK Ionic 5 (not the 5G). That is: a little lead at the tail, a full strip (which is split for each side from about 8 o clock to 4 o clock <starting and stopping at the 4th cross>) and a double strip at 12 o clock.


He has posted a number of times about it in the racquet section, but it may have been awhile ago.

I meant your weight lifting routine actually.