A defense for the (presumed) sandbagger

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Originally Posted by kevhen

A 4.0 lady in my area has a 79-19 record over the last 4 years and hasn't been bumped up yet. She was 3-3 against 4.5 rated players last year and also won all 3 of her district matches and hasn't played any sectional matches. 79-19 is a very good record not to get bumped and she wins by a large margin in most of her matches like 6-2, 6-1. The USTA's NTRP formula is f'ed up.

Like the original poster, she most likely has too much data on her keeping her at her current NTRP level. To move up, she must play higher NTRP players, and stop playing at the lower NTRP level.

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Originally Posted by North

I dealt with the USTA about the sandbagging issue a few years ago - spoke to a number of people at the national level. (What can I say - I'm just an activist at heart ). They kept pointing out that people purposely don't do their best on visual ratings and even came close to admitting that the sandbagging screws up the formula they use to calculate ratings.

A suggestion that has been repeatedly made to USTA is to bring back visual ratings only for people who want to appeal up. Ie - people who feel they have not been bumped up when they should be or even bumped down when they should not be. So far, USTA has not been able to give me (or anyone else I know) a good reason not to do this. Seems like that sort of rating might be more of a true benchmark than with the current system. I've always wondered if a petition on just that suggestion would have any effect....

There's been a proposal floating around to have verifiers go out to Districts + and start doing instant DQs ... where you will see the bulk of the sandbaggers. Unfortunately, most sections consider the cost too high.

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Originally Posted by oldguysrule

I think everyone who has been at the top of their level, about to bump up, has been accused of sandbagging at least once. To me, a true sand-bagger is someone who self rates too low or someone who sits out and comes back in at a lower level. If you have been computer rated for 5-6 years, you are not sandbagging. However, I would make more of an effort to play at the 4.0 level as well as 3.5.

Do you play any tournaments? Playing up in bigger tournaments can put you in situations where your true ability will be reflected.

In my area, if someone wants to play USTA league, it is not uncommon for them to contact captains to try to get on a team. You might only get a few matches at the higher level, but that would get you in the door.

Also, how many matches per year do you play that are reflected in the system? (USTA league or USTA sanctioned tournament matches)

Oldguysrule nailed it.

Besides NTRP tournaments, you should consider playing Open tournaments. That should give your NTRP rating a needed boost

[tcjackson]

Originally Posted by penpal

Here, in my opinion, is the rub ... and the reason we all might want to cut some of these presumed sandbaggers some slack. Several players in my town have been bumped to 4.0 after they had a great winning percentage locally, but their teams did not advance to Districts. It seems that the algorithm used by the USTA to calculate ratings doesn't accurately weight matches, and so my losses at Districts cause me to remain a 3.5, even as I consistently beat players locally who are bumped to 4.0 based on their local record.

You are on the right track Penpal. I am involved with the USTA and know some interesting tidbits of information regarding the dynamic rating system.
I was lucky enough to got to 4.0 National last year. In all of 2006 I played approximately 85 matches. A mixture of singles, doubles, tournaments and leagues.

When I got to Nationals I got walloped by a kid who had no business being in the 4.0 division (another thread, Rants & Raves). I also lost another singles match and a doubles match while at Nationals. I was able to win one singles match.

I have been told on several occasions by USTA officials that the 4 matches I played at Nationals had the same weight as my other 81 matches throughout the year!

Now thinking logically about this, it stands to reason that Sectional and District results would also weigh heavier than "normal" matches during the year.

When I asked why these matches weigh more I was given this explanation:

Since the District, Section and National events are being competed with the best of each division, those matches should weigh more than the other matches through the year. The "other" matches might be against a particularly weak group in you local area. The District, Sectional and National matches supposedly are played with an increasing "cream of the crop" competition. My two cents. Hope this helps.

[North]

Originally Posted by Raiden.Kaminari

There's been a proposal floating around to have verifiers go out to Districts + and start doing instant DQs ... where you will see the bulk of the sandbaggers. Unfortunately, most sections consider the cost too high.

Yeah, I know about that. When the executive at National USTA told me about that, that's when I made the suggestion about visual ratings only for people who believe they should move up. USTA could potentially even charge a fee for it, to offset some (or all) of the cost and to assure that anyone requesting the visual rating would be serious about it. He thought it was a great idea, cost-effective and all, but couldn't give a good reason not to do it.

The other thing some people at the regional level in my area have said is that people get to know who the verifiers (for instant DQs) are. Even if the process was affordable, there is only a limited supply of unrecognisable people who could actually carry the process out.

[penpal]

tcjackson - you had me and then you lost me.

Are you saying that you were told the sectional, district and national matches ARE assigned a greater weight than local league matches, or they ARE NOT assigned a greater weight?

[tcjackson]

Originally Posted by penpal

tcjackson - you had me and then you lost me.

Are you saying that you were told the sectional, district and national matches ARE assigned a greater weight than local league matches, or they ARE NOT assigned a greater weight?

I didn't mean to confuse things further. This rating system is confusing enough already!

To clarify it: National matches weigh more than Sectionals. Sectional matches weigh more than Districts. Districts weigh more than the garden variety league match or tournament matches.

Again, I've been told on several occasions (by USTA people who know) that my 4 National matches played in Hawaii last October weighed as much as my other 81 matches for all of 2006. 50% of my dynamic year end rating came from those 4 matches. In fact, before I went to National's I had gotten bumped to 4.5. We have leagues that start in October so there are "Early Start" ratings publishe in the Missouri Valley section.

After my 4 matches at National's my rating was bumped back down to 4.0 for the year end ratings.

[penpal]

Ok, I see what you're saying now ... you explained it perfectly both times, I'm just a little slow on the uptake

So theoretically, a person could go 10-0 in local league play, go 0-2 at the district tournament and those two losses might count for as many as 5-7 losses, or something like that? Very interesting if that is true.

I'm not actually sure what the solution is in my particular case. I don't know that I necessarily should be bumped to 4.0, as my record against some of the best 3.5 players at districts has only been so-so. It seems it might have made more sense not to bump the guys who had good local records, but didn't have the opportunity to play at districts. Obviously, that can be problematic as well, as it's not fair to only bump people who are on teams that make it to districts.

I guess there is no easy answer, and things like this will happen. Again though, this experience has made me less critical of supposed sandbaggers.

[vllockhart]

Originally Posted by penpal

And to those of you who might ask why I don't just play up, rather than continue beating up on 3.5s my answer is simple ... no one has asked me to play on their 4.0 team. My option appears to be play 3.5 or don't play USTA league tennis at all, which would be a shame because I do enjoy the team aspect of it.

Since when do you have to be asked to join a team? You join a 4.0 team the same way you join a 4.0, don't you? How would the 4.0 captain know to ask you to join? Find out who the 4.0 captains and coordinators in your area are, find a team and join it. Playing at 3.5 for 6 years is nonsensical to me. You're in your comfort level and YOU don't want to move up into new territory. But don't blame it on someone not inviting you.

[10sfreak]

Originally Posted by vllockhart

Since when do you have to be asked to join a team? You join a 4.0 team the same way you join a 4.0, don't you? How would the 4.0 captain know to ask you to join? Find out who the 4.0 captains and coordinators in your area are, find a team and join it. Playing at 3.5 for 6 years is nonsensical to me. You're in your comfort level and YOU don't want to move up into new territory. But don't blame it on someone not inviting you.

Uh, I'm not sure what you mean by this. How do you just join a team, if they don't want you? I've been captaining for 3 years now, and believe me, no one has joined any of my teams except by my invitation!

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Originally Posted by 10sfreak

Uh, I'm not sure what you mean by this. How do you just join a team, if they don't want you? I've been captaining for 3 years now, and believe me, no one has joined any of my teams except by my invitation!

You can always join a team uninvited. But that doesn't mean you will be played

[10sfreak]

Originally Posted by Raiden.Kaminari

You can always join a team uninvited. But that doesn't mean you will be played

LOL! True enough!

[sunsetwhitney]

Wow. I guess you can justify anything. Why does a team need to ask you to play? The simple fact is this, you are a sandbagger, accept it... You must enjoy beating up on people since you seem to keep track of your wins, I always enjoy competetion, so I play at a level commemserate with my skill level, if you can win 75-80% of your matches at a given level then you are playing at too low of a level, this is the simple truth. The right theing to do is to find a team on your own (yes it might take some effort, but it is the right thing to do).Buck up and play up.. Maybe your team needs to play up? Hell, if your team is getting to Districts every year then maybe they should all play up.. Unless winning is more important than comp? If so continue your journey as the best of the lower ranks, After 6 years of playing USTA you're still at the entry level? No love here be a man and do the right thing.

[penpal]

Originally Posted by vllockhart

Since when do you have to be asked to join a team? You join a 4.0 team the same way you join a 4.0, don't you? How would the 4.0 captain know to ask you to join? Find out who the 4.0 captains and coordinators in your area are, find a team and join it. Playing at 3.5 for 6 years is nonsensical to me. You're in your comfort level and YOU don't want to move up into new territory. But don't blame it on someone not inviting you.

Have you ever played on a USTA team before?

And as for the nonsensical part, why is it nonsensical to play at the level I've been assigned? Actually, until all my best competition began getting bumped, I was enjoying some good matches.

[10sfreak]

Originally Posted by sunsetwhitney

Wow. I guess you can justify anything. Why does a team need to ask you to play? The simple fact is this, you are a sandbagger, accept it... You must enjoy beating up on people since you seem to keep track of your wins, I always enjoy competetion, so I play at a level commemserate with my skill level, if you can win 75-80% of your matches at a given level then you are playing at too low of a level, this is the simple truth. The right theing to do is to find a team on your own (yes it might take some effort, but it is the right thing to do).Buck up and play up.. Maybe your team needs to play up? Hell, if your team is getting to Districts every year then maybe they should all play up.. Unless winning is more important than comp? If so continue your journey as the best of the lower ranks, After 6 years of playing USTA you're still at the entry level? No love here be a man and do the right thing.

I really don't see where Penpal is a sandbagger. He's playing at the level the computer rates him, and apparently hasn't won enough of the matches that matter (I have NO idea how the computer decides that, but I'm sure someone on here does know...), so he hasn't been bumped up yet. So many posters on here seem to think that everyone should always be playing at a level or two above what their rating is...

[tennisguy2121]

Do you want to get better?? Then play where you will be challenged in your league. If you would just like to win all the time, then stay with what you've been doing. I myself would rather get beat then play at a lower level. I play in a 4.5 league, and there are multiple 5.0's that are in the 4.5 league unfortunately. I am not complaining too much though because it is great experience for me.
Like I said before, if you want to get better, challenge yourself. I dont understand why anyone would want to do anythng other than that, but to each his own i suppose.

[johnkidd]

Originally Posted by sunsetwhitney

Wow. I guess you can justify anything. Why does a team need to ask you to play? The simple fact is this, you are a sandbagger, accept it... You must enjoy beating up on people since you seem to keep track of your wins, I always enjoy competetion, so I play at a level commemserate with my skill level, if you can win 75-80% of your matches at a given level then you are playing at too low of a level, this is the simple truth. The right theing to do is to find a team on your own (yes it might take some effort, but it is the right thing to do).Buck up and play up.. Maybe your team needs to play up? Hell, if your team is getting to Districts every year then maybe they should all play up.. Unless winning is more important than comp? If so continue your journey as the best of the lower ranks, After 6 years of playing USTA you're still at the entry level? No love here be a man and do the right thing.

1. Pen Pal is not sandbagging because he has an established record and is not throwing sets or matches to keep his rating.

2. I have also heard your playoff record is assigned a higher value then your local matches. More then likely Penpal is a benchmark 3.5 becuase he's winning roughly 3/4 local matches and 50% of his district matches. If the results at districts were better he'd get bumped.

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Originally Posted by johnkidd

1. Pen Pal is not sandbagging because he has an established record and is not throwing sets or matches to keep his rating.

2. I have also heard your playoff record is assigned a higher value then your local matches. More then likely Penpal is a benchmark 3.5 becuase he's winning roughly 3/4 local matches and 50% of his district matches. If the results at districts were better he'd get bumped.

The problem is PenPal has too much data sticking him to the 3.5 level. If he played more matches at a higher level (including tournaments), this would start improving his DNTRP towards his true level. However, by playing at the 3.5 level and facing 3.0 to high 3.5 players, he will remain 3.5.

For the opponents got moved up, they may have played at a higher NTRP level while not having many matches in the system.

[goober]

I don't consider PenPal to be a sandbagger. The computer rating formula may be at fault but as long as he is trying his best in every match, he is not sandbagging IMO.

However, the excuse that the reason that he hasn't moved to 4.0 because nobody has invited him is probably the lamest excuse I have ever heard. There are plenty of ways to play up. You can find a 4.0 team that will take you with a little effort if you are proactive in your approach. If you are just sitting around for a captain to call you of course it is not going to happen. Heck just start your own 4.0 team and captain it yourself. Play some 4.0 tourneys.

[penpal]

Originally Posted by Raiden.Kaminari

The problem is PenPal has too much data sticking him to the 3.5 level. If he played more matches at a higher level (including tournaments), this would start improving his DNTRP towards his true level. However, by playing at the 3.5 level and facing 3.0 to high 3.5 players, he will remain 3.5.

For the opponents got moved up, they may have played at a higher NTRP level while not having many matches in the system.

That's interesting Raiden. I believe you're probably correct, though I also think something is a little askew with the current system if players are essentially required to play above their level in order to get bumped.

FWIW, and for all those who consider me a sandbagger, for most of the past six years I honestly thought I was doing the proper thing by playing at my rated level. I've seen several players play above their level, and more often than not they get beaten badly and don't provide good competition at the higher level. I assumed most of them had also done well at their rated level and they each probably thought they were ready to play up. I didn't want to jump ahead of myself and dilute the competition at the higher level.

Anyway, lots of good feedback in this thread. Though I guess I haven't offered a good enough defense for the (presumed) sandbagger for some