Understanding just how unbelievable Navratilova really was at her peak in 83-84!

[Lambsscroll]

Margaret Smith Court "For sheer strength of performance and accomplishment there has never been a tennis player to match" her.[1] Between 1960 and 1975, she won a record 62 Grand Slam titles – 24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles. In 1970, she became only the second woman player to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in the same calendar year. Court won 62 of the 85 Grand Slam finals (72.9%) in which she appeared, including 24-5 (82.8%) in singles finals. She would have had more titles but she retired from tennis from 1966 to 1968, he he. She is still the best womens player to this day.

[CEvertFan]

Originally Posted by Lambsscroll

Margaret Smith Court "For sheer strength of performance and accomplishment there has never been a tennis player to match" her.[1] Between 1960 and 1975, she won a record 62 Grand Slam titles – 24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles. In 1970, she became only the second woman player to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in the same calendar year. Court won 62 of the 85 Grand Slam finals (72.9%) in which she appeared, including 24-5 (82.8%) in singles finals. She would have had more titles but she retired from tennis from 1966 to 1968, he he. She is still the best womens player to this day.

It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by CEvertFan

It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

Yes, but she still is #2 behind Graf. Navi is only 3rd.

Condi

[federerfanatic]

Originally Posted by CEvertFan

It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

Well if one considers it a reasonable estimate she would have won 5-7 titles there had it been a fully attended slam, that would still give her 18-20 slams, definitely among the all time greatest. I say 5-7 since she won 3 Wimbledons on grass, 5 U.S Opens on grass, generaly underachied at Wimbledon, and would get probably a bit of a boost playing in front of the home crowd. Then again she would still then probably hold no significant records in all likelihood. Her most grand slam singles gone, her most grand slam doubles combined gone, her most grand slam slam womens doubles her most combined grand slam singles/womens doubles/mixed doubles gone. Totally up in the air who would hold the most slam titles at the Australian Open itself, could be here, or could have been a number of people had it always been a fully attended slam.

Also players like Navratilova and Evert would likely have won more slams then their current 18 total, had it been a fully attended slam then, whether it was on grass or hard courts. Evert only won 2 titles there vs 3 Wimbledons(grass)and 6 U.S Opens(hard). Navratilova only won 3 titles there vs 9 Wimbledons(grass) and 4 U.S Opens(hard court, and some bad luck at the U.S Open too).

I dont rate her the GOAT either for the same reason. I would have her either #3 or #4 in the Open era, just ahead of her great rival Billie Jean King who I have #5 in the Open era.

[federerfanatic]

Originally Posted by Lambsscroll

She would have had more titles but she retired from tennis from 1966 to 1968, he he. She is still the best womens player to this day.

I agree had she not taken 3 different retirements, while in the prime of her career, she would almost certainly be the undisputed GOAT today. That was her choice though.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by federerfanatic

I agree had she not taken 3 different retirements, while in the prime of her career, she would almost certainly be the undisputed GOAT today. That was her choice though.

Same with Graf.
If she hadn't retired in 1999 but 5 years later she would have ended with about 26-28 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

Condi

[federerfanatic]

Originally Posted by Condoleezza

Same with Graf.
If she hadn't retired in 1999 but 5 years later she would have ended with about 26-28 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

Condi

Court's 3 retirements each came when she was dominating the game. Graf's retirement came when she had won 1 out of the last 7 grand slams she played over almost 3 years, missing 4 others with injuries. How you think she was going to rebound at that point to win another 4-6 slams over the next 5 years, as she only got older, and the Williams sisters took the game to a higher level then it was during the Hingis reign, I can only imagine.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by federerfanatic

Court's 3 retirements each came when she was dominating the game. Graf's retirement came when she had won 1 out of the last 7 grand slams she played over almost 3 years, missing 4 others with injuries. How you think she was going to rebound at that point to win another 4-6 slams over the next 5 years, as she only got older, and the Williams sisters took the game to a higher level then it was during the Hingis reign, I can only imagine.

The Williams sisters took the game to higher level ....?
What about checking against which journeywomen the Willies lost in 2000-04 before posting BS like that in a public internet forum?

Graf had overtaken the Willies in the rankings in summer of 1999. She had made 2 of the last 2 slam finals. Of course she would have become older, she would have been 30-34 in 2000-04.

But Navratilova made 7 slam finals at age 30-34, won 3 of the them, lost 4 against a young Graf - against the greatest player of all time.

So Graf would have been able to make AT LEAST 7 slam finals in 2000-04, IMO.
And she would have won more than just 3 of them.
26-28 slams is a quite reasonable estimate.


Condi

[AndrewD]

Originally Posted by CEvertFan

It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didn’t play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.

[federerfanatic]

Originally Posted by Condoleezza

The Williams sisters took the game to higher level ....?
What about checking against which journeywomen the Willies lost in 2000-04 before posting BS like that in a public internet forum?

Venus was nearly unbeatable on fast courts in 2000 and 2001. Those journeywomen losses you are talking about are probably on slow courts, since she did not do that well on slow courts either year, but was dominant from Wimbledon-U.S Open both years. Venus in 1999 was usually losing to Hingis and Davenport, from 2000-2003 she was owning both.

Serena in 2002 and 2003 was on another planet from Serena in 1999. Serena in 1999 was still losing multiple times to a player like Sandrine Testud.

Graf had overtaken the Willies in the rankings in summer of 1999.

Hingis and Davenport were over the Williams too in 1999. Despite the rankings Venus had clearly overtaken Hingis and Davenport by the end of 2000, and Serena and Venus were the 2 dominant players in 2002-2003 playing in 5 out of 6 slam finals in slam events both were in. So they had much progression left after 1999.

But Navratilova made 7 slam finals at age 30-34, won 3 of the them, lost 4 against a young Graf - against the greatest player of all time.

Navratilova was not dealing with all the injuries Graf already was from ages 27-30.

So Graf would have been able to make AT LEAST 7 slam finals in 2000-04, IMO.

And she would have won more than just 3 of them.
26-28 slams is a quite reasonable estimate.

If she really felt that way why would she not have continued? I doubt she felt the same way you do, if she really felt all the records she was pretty close to were within grasp she would have continued. After all she has always been centred on winning and tennis, and admited to having a one-track vision at the time.

[FiveO]

Originally Posted by AndrewD

SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didn’t play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.

Excellent post. But you should realize that you're ruining a perfectly good yarn being spun by a particular poster with silly things called "facts". I wrote a similar post in another iteration of this "anti-everyone but Graf" rant being put forth by that poster. Ultimately, without any effect. Nice effort though.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by AndrewD

SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didn’t play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.

So only in 3 years more than 4 top-10 players!
IMO, the other 8 Court titles can't count as true slam titles. They are comparable to a Amelia Island or Moscow title of today.

Condi

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by federerfanatic

Venus was nearly unbeatable on fast courts in 2000 and 2001. Those journeywomen losses you are talking about are probably on slow courts, since she did not do that well on slow courts either year, but was dominant from Wimbledon-U.S Open both years. Venus in 1999 was usually losing to Hingis and Davenport, from 2000-2003 she was owning both.

Serena in 2002 and 2003 was on another planet from Serena in 1999. Serena in 1999 was still losing multiple times to a player like Sandrine Testud. ....

Venus played 16 tournaments on fast courts in 00/01 and won 13.
But she lost to Davenport, Shaughnessy and Maggie Maleeva.
2 journeywomen (players who never made a slam final).

And she played 7 tournaments on slow courts, won only 1.
Losses to Coetzer, Dokic, Sanchez, Hingis, Henin, Schett.
3 journeywomen.

And that in her TWO BEST years EVER. 5 journeywomen.

Graf lost to 5 journeywomen in a ELEVEN-year time frame (1986-96).
Just to put things a little bit into perspective ...

Condi

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by FiveO

Excellent post. But you should realize that you're ruining a perfectly good yarn being spun by a particular poster with silly things called "facts". I wrote a similar post in another iteration of this "anti-everyone but Graf" rant being put forth by that poster. Ultimately, without any effect. Nice effort though.

It was CEvertFan who brought up Court's hollow AO titles in the 60ies ...

Condi

[CEvertFan]

Originally Posted by AndrewD

SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didn’t play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.

You make a good point, but other than Bueno, Goolagong and King I don't really believe that any of those other players could seriously challenge Court whether they were in the top 10 at the time or not, and since King and Bueno didn't play the AO every year in the 60's and Goolagong came along in the very late 60's and early 70's I still stand by my statement that it was a cakewalk for Court to win the AO in the 60's because she clearly outclassed the field most years.

[CEvertFan]

Originally Posted by Condoleezza

Yes, but she still is #2 behind Graf. Navi is only 3rd.

Condi

Actually Evert and Navratilova tie for 4th place. Helen Wills Moody is 3rd with 19 GS titles.

[federerfanatic]

Originally Posted by Condoleezza

Venus played 16 tournaments on fast courts in 00/01 and won 13.
But she lost to Davenport, Shaughnessy and Maggie Maleeva.
2 journeywomen (players who never made a slam final).

And she played 7 tournaments on slow courts, won only 1.
Losses to Coetzer, Dokic, Sanchez, Hingis, Henin, Schett.
3 journeywomen.

And that in her TWO BEST years EVER. 5 journeywomen.

Graf lost to 5 journeywomen in a ELEVEN-year time frame (1986-96).
Just to put things a little bit into perspective ...

Condi

I am not comparing Venus in her prime to Graf in her prime, which is meaningless to Graf's chances to win slam titles in 2000-2004. Graf in 2000-2004 would not have been in her "prime", she wasnt even in her prime by 1999, so that argument is is irrelevant.

I am comparing Venus of 2000-2003 to Venus of 1999, since you basicaly implied she was exactly the same which is nonsense. Venus went 2-2 vs Graf in 1999, Serena went 1-1 and both were 3 setters-the win and the loss. So the Williams and Graf were virtualy equal as far as a head to head matchup by 1999 already. Venus from 2000-2003 was much better then 1999, which was my point, and Serena in 2002-2003 was also much better then 1999. Graf would not have gotten better from 1999, the best she could have done at her age is stay the same, but more likely would have gotten worse. The Williams were already playing her equal in 1999, she would have had a very hard time beating them for slam titles in future years at that point.

I have an idea for you. Why dont you try putting a poll in the general tennis discussion forum. List options for how many slams Graf would have won had she played another 5 years after she retired, and give options from a low of 0, to a higher of 9 or more. See how it turns out.

You point out Venus won 13 of her 16 "fast surface" events in 2000-2001. That alone proves how much better she was then in 1999. Compare that to how many of her "fast surface" events she won in 1998-1999 combined. Also compare her head to heads with Hingis and Davenport in 98-99, to what they were in 2000-2001.

[federerfanatic]

Originally Posted by CEvertFan

You make a good point, but other than Bueno, Goolagong and King I don't really believe that any of those other players could seriously challenge Court whether they were in the top 10 at the time or not, and since King and Bueno didn't play the AO every year in the 60's and Goolagong came along in the very late 60's and early 70's I still stand by my statement that it was a cakewalk for Court to win the AO in the 60's because she clearly outclassed the field most years.

Yeah pretty much. It would be like if Navratilova racked up a bunch of Australian Opens with Evert, Mandilikova, Austin earlier on, Graf later on, all not playing most of the time. Yet all the other top players like Shriver, Hanika, Jaeger, Jordan, Durie playing each year. It is pretty much the same kind of thing.

[Condoleezza]

Originally Posted by federerfanatic

I am not comparing Venus in her prime to Graf in her prime, which is meaningless to Graf's chances to win slam titles in 2000-2004. Graf in 2000-2004 would not have been in her "prime", she wasnt even in her prime by 1999, so that argument is is irrelevant.

I am comparing Venus of 2000-2003 to Venus of 1999, since you basicaly implied she was exactly the same which is nonsense. ....

In 2000-03 Graf was gone and Davenport & Hingis slumped or were injured most of the time. Take away all Graf/Davenport/Hingis matches and Venus has the same winning percentage in 1999 as in 2000/03.

Graf would not have dominated in 2000/04 but she would have won a slam here and there. 4-6 more slams in 5 years would have been easily possible.

Condi

[federerfanatic]

Originally Posted by Condoleezza

In 2000-03 Graf was gone and Davenport & Hingis slumped or were injured most of the time. Take away all Graf/Davenport/Hingis matches and Venus has the same winning percentage in 1999 as in 2000/03.

Graf would not have dominated in 2000/04 but she would have won a slam here and there. 4-6 more slams in 5 years would have been easily possible.

Condi

Explain to me how it was Hingis and Davenport were slumped or injured most of the time in 2000 and 2001. I can see 2002 and 2003, but not 2000 and 2001.

Hingis and Davenport did not slump in 2000 and 2001. Davenport's only problem is she was losing to Venus so much, and she wasnt before, except for Venus she is doing just as well as 98-99. Hingis in 2000 was the same as 1998-1999 except losing to Venus much more often too. In 2001 Hingis also started to lose to a rejuvenated Capriati, and to a more mature Serena more often. Hingis in 1998 was already starting to see her dominance ended with the emergence of power tennis, Davenport starting to beat her often, the Williams beating her sometimes, Pierce occasionaly. Then each year from there it increased, Venus and Serena beating her more and more often, Capriati coming back and starting to beat her, etc....So it makes sense 2000 and 2001 was a bit more down from 1998 and 1999, the same way 1998 and 1999 was down from 1997 for her. It was a gradual decline of her former dominance once the power game emerged again.