Outpushed by a non-Pusher

[PushyPushster]

Ezra: Your point is well taken. As I've mentioned before, though, I have years of self-taught tennis to unlearn and due to family constraints only a limited time to work with. Unless I'm willing to destroy my current game and drop out of the leagues I have so much fun with (I'm not) then I have move slowly.

I think the backhand would be the place to start. Not in order to "Develop a weapon", though. That's a little too bold! "Making it less of a Liability" is a more realistic goal.

[EZRA]

That's good enough... as long as it makes your overall game better and less vulnerable to your opponent's attacks, then its all good.

Sometimes though, if you really WANT to improve your game, you have to dismantle all the bad habits you now have. Reinvent your game .. it may be a very frustrating process but it is quite rewarding in the long run. I know you're aware of this and it has probably crossed your mind several times ... I'd strongly suggest for you to do so.

I was in the same boat a few years ago. I, like yourself, was completely self taught.. starting when I was 6 yrs old way back when people were using wooden racquets. I was a small kid so it took both my limbs for me to be able to wield that heavy *** wooden stick. `Til now I play double fisted on both sides. Anyways, like I said... after competitive tennis (age-group and college tennis), I find myself playing doubles most of the time and my double fisted volleys aren't cutting it at all. I had to revamp my net game altogether and switch to one handers. It took me months of patience, perseverance, and hard work to get the feel of it .... and it paid off. Now, I only wish that I could've done it sooner since it completely made my game more complete (I used to depend on power shots from the baseline and totally no net game whatsoever).

[A.Davidson]

Yikes, everyone getting so upset for no reason...Tennis is made up of different kinds of players who play the game in different ways. Arguing about the "satisfying points" is ludicrous, because to the different types each enjoy a certain way of doing things. Aggressive players probably DO remember those hard-hit winners more, whereas pushers are going to remember doing the impossible. Serve-and-volleyers remember their smashes/volley winners, big servers their aces, and so on and so forth. Just enjoy it...

[jkonecne]

Now you know what it feels like when people like me play people like you. haha

[Caswell]

I've completely removed the word "pusher" from my vocabulary.

This season I've played a lot of guys that can run down anything and simply focus on making solid contact with the ball in both the 3.0 and 3.5 leagues. Maybe this is pushing. Maybe I'm supposed to be mad that they're not hitting the ball as hard as the 4.0 guys I play occasionally.

I just know they make me work for my points, and that I improve more when I play them versus the typical 3.0 or 3.5 guy who can be beaten by hitting the ball down the middle and waiting for them to put it into the fence.

[Clive Walker]

I have long felt that the reason many get upset at the retrieving style of play is that they are not quite able to dispatch it in the way they would like. (I have managed to get around this by reminding myself that I am not too far away technically from beating Push comfortably, although it can be frustrating as it's not the way I like to play the game) Once an attacking player reaches a certain standard he will completely destroy Mr Pushy, irrespective of how hard he runs.

[rleidle]

Speaking of net height do most singles players make use of the wooden net posts that many clubs have? If you watch the pros you will notice that they move the net posts in for a singles match and out for a doubles match.

I hate pushers. I really hope you die.

I had a match bout a month ago against the biggest pusher you could ever imagine. ever. He was fast as fck! and he would run-down potential winners back, with underspin, RIGHT BACK TO THE BASELINE!!! It was a HS match..I was #1 for my team and he #1 for his... neway I won the 1st set on tiebreak 7-6 (7-5) but I was so tired out from the first set, constantly having to conjur up impossible winners...that I ended up losing the second set 0-6 lol right.. the next set I worked abit harder, but once again, I wasn't hurting him! so that was pretty gey.. i lost the 3rd set 1-6.... >:[

so neways i wish a violent death upon u.

[SlapShot]

^^^

So you were outplayed by someone more consistent than you, and you feel the need to whine about it?

Try getting more consistent and learn how to beat someone at their own game, instead of trying to outhit someone.

Once you reach a certain level, you can feast on pushers.

[Caswell]

Originally Posted by Get Wrecked

I hate pushers. I really hope you die...

It was a HS match..I was #1 for my team and he #1 for his...

so neways i wish a violent death upon u.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36

[35ft6]

Originally Posted by PushyPushster

I just had a horrible singles match where I was out-pushed at my own game.

One of my proudest wins in college was when I outpushed a pusher. It was one of those days. For whatever reason, the first few points I just rallied with him, and after that I just couldn't hit out. So every rally was a marathon. At the time, I just didn't miss slice backhands, so it turned into a battle of wills, backhand to backhand.

My coach came by in the second set, told me to start hitting up the middle because the guy likes pace and to hit on the move. I tried that for a while just to please my coach, even though I really wasn't giving him pace, but all of the sudden he would hit flat winners or force errors out of me. So I went back to pushing, which was all I could do that day. I think my coach caught him when he hit two spectacular shots in a row and assumed he was capable of doing that a lot.

Afterwards, the coach said the cattiest thing to me I ever heard from another coach, that his number one has beaten some really great players who hit hard because he loves pace. The way he said it, though, the message was clear: he beats people better than you, you brought his game down. Haha. Whatever.

[DavaiMarat]

I'm a 5.0-5.5 and I love to play pushers. I use to hate it back in the day growing up but now I absolutely love it. To me it's a chance to hit one more ball and make that little f**'er run for it one last time.

2 strategies I use against pushers and they seem to work for me.

1) Approach the net - A pusher, no matter how much he lobs will be hard pressed to execute while you are coming in. You usually get a weak passing shot and no amount of legs will let him get to a short angled volley.

If he lobs, love the overhead, snap that wrist down and get that ball to bounce out of the court. There's nothing more discouraging to a pusher then to have it slammed with no chance of retrieval.

2) Bring him to the net. I love toying with pushers because you know you'll get a easy ball that you can play with. Drop him short, then come up the service line. He'll try to hit it and most likely try to retreat back to the baseline. Whammo, he can't respond while backtracking....drop him short again or volley it into the open court for a winner. Pushers are uncomfortable when put in a position where they must 'ACT' rather then 'REACT'.

Pushy, I think you need to graduate from your condition and get out of the pusher catergory and into the Counterpuncher realm.

A counterpuncher is someone who can redirect someone's pace and depth and create his own. For this you need good technique though, not only legs. This means you must be able to place the ball deep, in both corners and preferable with some good heavy spin. These players albeit are more defensive players are not pushers cause they can 'force' errors alot of time with there 'heavy' balls. It sounds like you need to develop this style to reach the next level.

Good luck with it.

[PushyPushster]

Originally Posted by DavaiMarat

2 strategies I use against pushers and they seem to work for me.

1) Approach the net

I read this advice all the time on this board but believe me, at the level I play (3.5), watching someone gallop towards the net isn't all that intimidating. As long as they don't have a good overhead smash my lob can usually keep them far enough off the net to give the necessary space for a well-placed, albeit slow, passing shot.

Originally Posted by DavaiMarat

If he lobs, love the overhead, snap that wrist down and get that ball to bounce out of the court. There's nothing more discouraging to a pusher then to have it slammed with no chance of retrieval.

True. I hate playing guys with a good overhead smash. Watching someone paste it down the lines, or, worse yet, just smash it out the back of the court is depressing.

Originally Posted by DavaiMarat

2) Bring him to the net.

Yeah, you've got my number. It takes a lot more energy to run back & forth than side to side and my net game is, well, less than impressive. It's amazing how few people will actually follow this gameplan, though.

Originally Posted by DavaiMarat

Pushy, I think you need to graduate from your condition and get out of the pusher catergory and into the Counterpuncher realm.

Baby-steps. First a competent backhand ... then the world!

[Raiden.Kaminari]

Originally Posted by DavaiMarat

I'm a 5.0-5.5 and I love to play pushers. I use to hate it back in the day growing up but now I absolutely love it. To me it's a chance to hit one more ball and make that little f**'er run for it one last time.

2 strategies I use against pushers and they seem to work for me.

1) Approach the net - A pusher, no matter how much he lobs will be hard pressed to execute while you are coming in. You usually get a weak passing shot and no amount of legs will let him get to a short angled volley.

If he lobs, love the overhead, snap that wrist down and get that ball to bounce out of the court. There's nothing more discouraging to a pusher then to have it slammed with no chance of retrieval.

2) Bring him to the net. I love toying with pushers because you know you'll get a easy ball that you can play with. Drop him short, then come up the service line. He'll try to hit it and most likely try to retreat back to the baseline. Whammo, he can't respond while backtracking....drop him short again or volley it into the open court for a winner. Pushers are uncomfortable when put in a position where they must 'ACT' rather then 'REACT'.

Pushy, I think you need to graduate from your condition and get out of the pusher catergory and into the Counterpuncher realm.

A counterpuncher is someone who can redirect someone's pace and depth and create his own. For this you need good technique though, not only legs. This means you must be able to place the ball deep, in both corners and preferable with some good heavy spin. These players albeit are more defensive players are not pushers cause they can 'force' errors alot of time with there 'heavy' balls. It sounds like you need to develop this style to reach the next level.

Good luck with it.

I also love to play pushers ... but I have a third option (totally agree with #1 and #2)

3) Bring him to net ... then lob him if he tries to volley. If he gets the lob, drop him again and repeat (because you know he doesn't have the overhead). Vengeance is a dish best served cold.

[chunlimeyers]

HOW TO BEAT A DINKER
BY: Vic Braden 1/9/2000

Having traveled to many tennis clubs and countries around the world, there is one constant on which I can count. Dinkers are still winning a ton of trophies and opponents are pulling out their hair with frustration. As a psychologist, I looked at this issue many years ago and it turned out to be quite complex.

From a pure tennis standpoint, the issue doesn’t seem too complicated. The dinker simply returns the ball until his/her opponent misses a shot. But, from a psychological viewpoint, there are several points worth considering if you want to beat the dinker.

The majority of dinkers are introverts. They have a great ability to stay focused on the retrieval issue and aren’t easily distracted. One year I was doing ski research at Vail, Colorado. We had three introverts and three extroverts listening to the instructor. I hid a camera and had a person ski down right behind the class. All three extroverts turned to see what was happening and all three introverts stayed focused on the instructor. Extroverts are more easily distracted and want to make something happen.

Dinkers seem to have a much higher frustration tolerance level. They are normally not surprised that the big hitters go bonkers failing to hit outright winners, which is almost impossible against dinkers. Often the big hitters will declare that “Today I’m going to just retrieve the ball and force the dinker to die on his/her own style”. It seldom works longer than a game or two before the slugger wants to commit suicide. Plenty of rackets have landed in trees, which were thrown by opponents of dinkers.

From a motor learning standpoint, the dinkers only have a few software packages that they send down to the muscles. The slugger has many times more and thus it’s easier to become confused when things don’t work.

From a physics point of view, it’s important to remember the formula espoused by tennis physicist, Dr. Howard Brody. That is, the speed of your shot is derived from getting one-half of your opponent’s ball speed, plus 1.5 times your own rackethead speed. Thus, the harder your opponent hits the ball, the faster your shot goes back with the same amount of effort. As dinkers have no speed to speak of, the opponent will then have to swing harder and faster than normal to produce the desired speed. In motor learning, there is a formula called the “speed-error” ratio. The bottom line is that the faster to try to swing and make things happen, the higher is the error ratio. Bingo.

Jack Kramer was an extremely smart player who could make strategy seem simple. In his words, “If your normal game is stronger than your opponent’s game, stick with your game. If your opponent’s game is more effective than yours, you will have to make you opponent hit shots they ordinarily do not like to hit. Dinkers are normally more successful up to the 4.0 level. After that, players normally have developed a solid game that is simply too strong for the dinker.

One, dinkers like to lengthen time frames for hitting shots. Thus, they normally stand way behind the baseline and allow the bounce to reach the apex and then fall. In physics, that just about doubles response time. So, one needs to develop short angle shots to force the dinker into the court to reduce response time. If dinkers are forced to hit “up” from a low position, the slugger can attack from midcourt and hit volleys while the ball is being lifted and the dinker is out of court. The problem, most opponents of dinkers can’t hit short angle shots. Dinkers often will run in for the short angle and then quickly retreat to the baseline. But if they have to do that ten times in succession, they often turn blue and disintegrate. Opponents of dinkers need to develop a slower slice serve to open up the court. A slower, but excessively sliced serve, actually can force a dinker to take seven to nine steps to reach the ball. Dinkers like to take a maximum of three steps to the left or right for every shot. Straight hard serves only make dinkers smile. Dinkers enjoy staying inside the sidelines, regardless of speed.

I take my hat off to dinkers because they have discovered a way to beat a ton of players. The complaint I often get comes from players who try the suggested tactics and they don’t work. For example, I hear them saying, “Yes, but what happens if the dinker can beat me from the baseline and from the net. The answer is, you will lose.

[DavaiMarat]

on Tennisone.com ....they talk about two sorts of players and thier nervous system make up. The fellow who wrote it is a neurologist Dr. Ray Brown. He talks about 'punchers' (aggressive fast swinging players - AF) versus 'pushers' (slow swinging steady players -AS). Here's a snipet.

The second part of the strategy is to establish a standard ball rhythm using the FO system. This system is good for up to 90 seconds, a time more than ample to win a tennis point (except between two AS players -- a point of over 600 shots was once played on the WTA tour). This means that the player must develop sufficient body and mind control to establish a rally at 80% effort and maintain this rally until a decisive advantage is obtained. Mind control is a big issue with AF players. They naturally think fast and want to end the point fast. This error-prone condition may be improved if they better understand their motor control systems.

The AF player will want to attack the AS player. Here are the strategic facts. The AF player can only attack for a few seconds before exhaustion. The AS player can defend indefinitely. This energy mismatch must be addressed. For example, the AF player cannot be one-dimensional such as having only a big forehand. The AS player will usually prevail unless the AF player's ball speed exceeds the AS players reaction time. As an AF player progresses through the rounds of a tournament, they will eventually meet a player who can defend against their fastest ball. At this point their progress ends with a loss. To counter this situation, the AF player must have an alternative. A good alternative is the heavy topspin. This shot is well suited to the AF system. Do not confuse this with the commonly taught light topspin which is arm dominant (the familiar horseshoe pattern is one example). The heavy topspin is core and leg dominant( Nadal). The heavy topspin has several advantages for the AF player: (1) it allows the AF player to operate with the FO system until they develop an advantage; (2) it is an effective weapon against the pusher; (3) it is an attacking shot that does not require maximum effort.

It's a good read and might give you some insight into your own game.