I pushed...Yikes!!!

[HowardH]

Originally Posted by JRstriker12

Don't mean to disagree with your pro, but CONFIDENCE can do wonders for your game. If you get two good wins under your belt with a nice margin (6-0, 6-2 etc.) that means you may be able to go for a bit more in your match. Don't go all out, but it means you can go for a bit more.

Confidence is a great thing and in the very very early stages of ones tennis game winning feels good no matter how it's acheived. For me, though, a 3.5 wannabee, nothing feels as good as a win knowing I played my best tennis, now that's a confidence booster.

[HowardH]

Sorry for all of the back to back posts!

JR is right also about having the confidence to go for more each time.

[cak]

Originally Posted by goober

Unless you want to stay at 3.0-3.5 forever, your instructor is spot on. The main problem with winning matches with push strokes is that it becomes habit. You start doing it all the time because it works and it becomes in engrained in your muscle memory. You keep winning but eventually you get to a point when you move up to a level where you can't beat anybody because of your strokes. It is very difficult for somebody who has been hitting bad strokes for years to then suddenly change. Many don't and that is why you see people who stay at 3.0-3.5 for decades. That is not necessarily bad, but most serious club tennis players aspire to something higher.

It is much easier to start learning the correct techniquet to begin with even if it means you lose early on.

I agree on the point that if you want to get better you need to improve strokes. But getting better does not necessarily go hand in hand with moving up through the NTRP ranks. Winning does. Pushers will get moved up faster for awhile, because they can win at 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5. So when deciding if you are improving or not do not base it on NTRP rating, or how well you are moving up in respect to others around you. Base it on how you feel, or how well you like how your game looks, or how well you play in practice. If you concentrate on NTRP or USTA wins you will get discouraged. And this is why so many players learn strategy and defense first, and pick up strokes later, the NTRP rewards that.

[JRstriker12]

Originally Posted by HowardH

Sorry for all of the back to back posts!

JR is right also about having the confidence to go for more each time.

Well now that you mention it, it should be more like a process. I know that in my first competative matches, I was so tight it was hard to play excatly how I know I could play. Sometimes I just had to to my best to get the ball back and weather the storm.

But each match, I worried less about winning or losing and was able to loosen up and play bettertennis - each match I new I could go for a bit more and didn't have to hold back as much.

I definitely don't win all the time, but building on wins and also losses - helped me bring my game along.

Looks like smiley has all the tools to be good, he just has to loosen and realize that these wins indicate that he can play the type of tennis his pro is talking about. I have to sympathize though, looke like smiley is facing a bit of presure to win to get on the USTA and travel teams - it's not always easy to loosen up under those conditions.

I don't advocate pushing, but sometimes being able to grind it out, retrieve balls, get the ball back into play, and stay consistent can be a great tool to pull out of your bag when your "A" game just isn't on.

[Sup2Dresq]

I agree with your coach.

Pushing will get you so far even if you win a lot at lower levels. Confidence he may have shot down now is better than going up a level and not understanding why you are always on the defense. I know this all too well, cause ever since i came back.. i tend to get trapped playing lower level peeps,.. and just need to keep the ball in play to win. I later go to nationals and have my hands full. Wasn't like that back in the day where I went for my shots.

Invest in your shots. I'm not saying bang it, but step in.. go for the shot.. don't just chip it in and be tentative. If you feel you are holding back.. then you are definetly not improving. You are being safe and comfortable. If thats what you like.. I suggest to me that the public park weekend play is your ultimate goal.

[Sup2Dresq]

"If you are not moving forward.. you are moving backwards"

"The most important thing you can do to achieve your goals is to make sure that as soon as you set them, you immediately begin to create momentum."
Anthony Robbins

[Cindysphinx]

I understand the confidence argument, but I can't get behind it.

Smiley now has two good push wins under her belt. So does that mean it is time to stop pushing? If so, then I guess we're all in agreement that now is the time to stop pushing.

Also, I lived this nightmare myself. I pushed at 2.5, and it worked great because I could push better than the next person. Oh, I was confident, all right, bordering on the cocky. I only met one person all year who could beat me.

I then pushed at 3.0. All that 2.5 confidence evaporated and I was left with nothing but crummy strokes.

Confidence achieved through pushing your way to a win evaporates on you at very predictable times: Whenever you start losing.

[fe6250]

I believe we are all agreeing that 'pushing' or more specifically inadequate strokes will only take you so far in tennis. With that in mind, it is important to determine what your goals are for tennis before deciding what you should and shouldn't do.

In my own case, I'm still trying to get better and have an idea of how far I would like to develop in my abilitiies that would negate a 'win at all cost' strategy. That said, there are many people playing tennis that don't give a hoot about advancing and want to just win matches, so perhaps the advice for them would be different.

[kevhen]

I disagree with your pro. He should not take your confidence away from you so early in your competitive career. Winning at lowest levels means learning how to keep the ball in play. You are doing that. To continue to improve, you will want to focus on better technique placing the ball deeper, etc. but that all will come with time. You know how to win. He seems to want to teach you to learn how to lose. Losing with great technique has few rewards. Keep practicing and working on improving your technique but don't try to change your current game too much or too fast. Keep doing what works but improve on what you are doing.

[Supernatural_Serve]

Originally Posted by kevhen

I disagree with your pro. He should not take your confidence away from you so early in your competitive career. Winning at lowest levels means learning how to keep the ball in play.

I disagree also, yet I understand his motive, but pushing is also a very useful skill to acquire even if its not ones ultimate skill or game plan

- its an effective strategy against players who have poor legs, conditioning and it works against over hitters who are inconsistent at generating their own pace (lots of players 4.0 and under).

- all of us need to develop our defensive game not just our offensive game

- everyone benefits from improving their touch, feel, range of power, and all the good things one can do with enhanced hands

- it teaches patience and improves one's shot tolerance

I would be a better player and win a few more matches if I used more push skills against certain players at the right time because as we all know simply handing someone pace and power often feeds right into their game plan.

A pro with a clue would respect a pusher's game for what it is without all the negative judgments and evaluate their students objectively helping them develop pusher skills just like they should be teaching the all court, baseline, serve and volley game too.

A teaching pro who believes the only game worth mastering (especially at lower levels) is the aggressive baseline game, is a clown.

[HowardH]

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

A teaching pro who believes the only game worth mastering (especially at lower levels) is the aggressive baseline game, is a clown.

No one ever said our instructors were teaching a basline only game. Where did you get that? Certainly not mine. We are currently working on our net game and volleys. Just because we want to use proper strokes doesn't automacially make us all "hard hitting baseline only" players or our instructors clowns.

No one ever said pushing was not effective at lower levels, especially for beginners. As far as I'm concerned if people are happy pushing all of their tennis lives, fine. I'm not one of them.

[Cindysphinx]

Only Smiley can tell us what she wants out of tennis and something about her potential to progress.

Oh, wait. She already has!

She wants to become a ranked player in her area. She is fast and quite fit. After just a few months, she can hang with good players. She takes a boatload of instruction, which is something people do when they want to improve and improve quickly.

Yet it's OK to push and *not hit the way she has been taught to hit?*

Hey, her pro saw her in the push victory. He didn't think much of it. That says a lot. I mean, any pro who said to me, "Hey, I saw your match, and although you didn't hit any of your shots the way I know you can, you outlasted that inferior player, so I'm good with it!" would get the boot.

[goober]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Only Smiley can tell us what she wants out of tennis and something about her potential to progress.

Oh, wait. She already has!

She wants to become a ranked player in her area. She is fast and quite fit. After just a few months, she can hang with good players. She takes a boatload of instruction, which is something people do when they want to improve and improve quickly.

Yet it's OK to push and *not hit the way she has been taught to hit?*

Hey, her pro saw her in the push victory. He didn't think much of it. That says a lot. I mean, any pro who said to me, "Hey, I saw your match, and although you didn't hit any of your shots the way I know you can, you outlasted that inferior player, so I'm good with it!" would get the boot.

Yup yup-

I am actually surprised that people are disagreeing with her pro. How many of us have the luxury to have a teaching pro watch a match of ours that counts and then critique us?

If I were to start a beginner on tennis, I would have them work on strokes, serves volleys, ect. until they have reasonable technique and only play out practice points. Only when they have reasonable technique start playing real matches. Of course that would be an ideal situation, most people don't have the patience to wait that long!

[wao]

Originally Posted by goober

Yup yup-

I am actually surprised that people are disagreeing with her pro. How many of us have the luxury to have a teaching pro watch a match of ours that counts and then critique us?

If I were to start a beginner on tennis, I would have them work on strokes, serves volleys, ect. until they have reasonable technique and only play out practice points. Only when they have reasonable technique start playing real matches. Of course that would be an ideal situation, most people don't have the patience to wait that long!

Based on the skill level I would agree. I wish I had the luxury of having a teaching pro watch. maybe I would get better. Once the person has reasonable technique and starts playing matches, you play to your strength and your opponents weaknesses.

[rosenstar]

Originally Posted by smiley74

So, had my second official match today and won 6-1 and 6-2. I had won my first match 6-0 6-0 so was feeling pretty darn good!

Well, my pro was on the next court today giving a lesson. After my match I also had a lesson scheduled. He promptly wiped the smile off my face; declared I pushed the whole match and should either hit my strokes correctly or not play matches at all (due to acquiring bad habits). Knocked me right down off cloud nine!

However, I know I was tentative and conservative and wasn't hitting correctly. My serves were weak as I just wanted to get them in.

So, he continues by saying that I might win now but who cares because I won't win later. So, better to lose now and go for my shots and improve my game than to win and never get better. He said keep going for my shots now and they will eventually go in!

Howard.......OMG you were right!!!!!

To him, pushing meant I was just getting the ball over without correct strokes, pace, or spin- no follow through, etc.

So- there you have it. Pushing is NOT good!!! It's one thing to retrieve balls by hitting correctly and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake and another to just get the ball over any which way. I learned my lesson, for sure!

So, now I am mentally preparing myself to get crushed in my upcoming matches! *sigh* Maybe I will suprise myself...but I doubt it! LOL

In practice, you do everything as correct as possible. Strive for perfect form and perfect shot selection.

However, in a match situation you do what you need to do to win. If you practice correctly, as you improve in practice, what you learn will slowly start to naturally appear in your matches.

[fe6250]

Anyone ever take a golf lesson with a good pro? The first thing they (usually) will say is, 'do you want to get better with what you got or do you want to get a lot better?' The implication is that they can work with what you have to make it as good as it can be or they can change it drastically - which generally makes you worse initially, but if you work at it will make you improve dramatically.

I believe the same principles apply here. If you want to achieve what you can with what you got - that's one thing, but if you really want to get better.... So as Cindy pointed out - Smiley wants and has the potential to get a lot better - so listen to the pro!

BTW - agree that it is awesome to have a pro watch your match. Not only is it great that they did it, but it gives them an opportunity to look at the whole game - not just a stroke. Kudos to your pro!

[rosenstar]

Originally Posted by goober

Yup yup-

I am actually surprised that people are disagreeing with her pro. How many of us have the luxury to have a teaching pro watch a match of ours that counts and then critique us?

If I were to start a beginner on tennis, I would have them work on strokes, serves volleys, ect. until they have reasonable technique and only play out practice points. Only when they have reasonable technique start playing real matches. Of course that would be an ideal situation, most people don't have the patience to wait that long!

yeah, but you can always improve your technique. even the pros change their technique throughout their careers. subtle changes, but changes none the less. Tennis is an evolving game that is always training. The best teaching pros research the sport, read books on strategies, techniques and other new info.

[Supernatural_Serve]

Originally Posted by HowardH

No one ever said our instructors were teaching a basline only game. Where did you get that? Certainly not mine. We are currently working on our net game and volleys. Just because we want to use proper strokes doesn't automacially make us all "hard hitting baseline only" players or our instructors clowns.

point well taken

Originally Posted by HowardH

No one ever said pushing was not effective at lower levels, especially for beginners. As far as I'm concerned if people are happy pushing all of their tennis lives, fine. I'm not one of them.

Push or pushing is an overused often misunderstood term.

If by push the OP did whatever she needed to stay in points, then I consider it a useful skill (since all tennis players at all levels do so from time to time rather than hit low percentage shots), if by push she meant abandon fundamental skills, stroke mechanics, etc. then that's undesireable.

Yet I don't consider push, pushing, or pusher to be someone who has abandoned fundamental skills or good stroke mechanics. I know plenty of pushers whose mechanics are flawless and it shows in their consistency, placement, and depth, whether they "push" the ball or not.

So, like I said, its an easily misunderstood overloaded term.

Why would any instructor put down a student who won a match? Why not be positive, creative, and encouraging and talk objectively about the match with a critical eye both positive and negative of actual skills demonstrated.

[Cindysphinx]

It depends on the student and the instructor.

Me, I don't want happy talk and encouragement that was not earned.

"Push" at the lower levels means pretty much what Smiley described: failing to finish the stroke. Just dinking it back. Believe me, it works fine at 2.5 and low 3.0.

I'd guess the pushing is what annoyed the pro.

Cindy -- who rarely gets positive evaluations from her pro that don't have the words "for your level" attached to the end of them, and who doesn't mind the qualification because it's true

[IanRichardson]

from what i have seen it is once a pusher always a pusher, so i think your pro is kind of right. It is one thing to play good defense and hit safe shots. It is another thing to hit everything with some kind of crap slice or underspin just to keep the ball in play. I think is better to hit 'real' shots so that as you get better you will be in the practice of doing that. It is easy to push if you need to if you, but it is not easy to hit good shots when you are not used to doing that. I think I would take enough lessons that i felt confident in my strokes so that when i went to play a match I was comforatable. Play some ntrp tournaments with people who are your level so that you can practice using the proper technique and still have the chance of winning and gaining confidence.