To Bend or Not to Bend?

[tennis-n-sc]

Originally Posted by randomname

dont have the authority to bend rules? the usta rulebook isnt exactly the constitution, believe it or not you ARE playing a game where I would hope common sense should be the prevailing rule

This is hilarious. Why have lines?

[tennis-n-sc]

Originally Posted by fe6250

I couldn't agree with you more! If I was making a living doing this I might have a different opinion. The key for most amateur tennis is to have fun in my book and realize that sometimes it's better to do the right thing.

I had an indoor league match tonight that was a true pleasure to play. My partner hit a serve and my opponent called it out and then a point afterwards asked me if I agreed with his call. I told him - that honestly 'no' (I was looking straight down the line) and he wanted to replay the point. I told him that I thought he had called the ball honestly as he saw it and that we shouldn't replay the point and lets just keep playing. After that there were a few other close calls where we all just laughed and tried to call them fairly. The mood was MUCH better than had I made an issue out of him not being 'sure' he should have called it 'out'.

Calling your own game is an imperfect science - we all need to recognize that a little.

Well, this is all according to the rules, isn't it. Why didn't you overrule your partner's immediatley?

[fe6250]

Originally Posted by tennis-n-sc

Well, this is all according to the rules, isn't it. Why didn't you overrule your partner's immediatley?

My partner was serving - the guy who called it out was returning. I don't have the 'right' to over-rule him.

[Supernatural_Serve]

Originally Posted by randomname

dont have the authority to bend rules? the usta rulebook isnt exactly the constitution, believe it or not you ARE playing a game where I would hope common sense should be the prevailing rule

I have to disagree with that.

Topaz had it right about respecting the rules.

Common sense is often the rationale for people inventing, manipulating, and falsely interpreting rules, especially by people who haven't taken the time to learn the rules.

I really get irritated by people who have never read the rules making up nonsense in the middle of the match that might be persuasive, might even be common sense, but are simply wrong and their common sense bullsh*t invites unnecessary arguments and fights that cheapen the game.

The rules aren't based in common sense. They are based on principles of what is best for the game. That is a critical thing to understand and respect.

And some of them are counter to common sense, especially the ones that would invite gamesmanship. For example, Its common sense to me that if the server serves a ball in doubles and it hits the opposing net man that the server shouldn't get the point, but the rules say the service team get the point since the ball was never given a chance to bounce.

I can see all kinds of unschooled people using common sense saying "that ball never had a chance of going in. It was out by 6 feet, its a fault" and I would say, "you are absolutely wrong and have never read the rules of tennis"

If the server wants to deny himself the point and offer a "do over" or take a fault, that's his right but in no way an obligation regardless of common sense and bullying by an indignant opponent using common sense is wrong and it is bad for the game.

[fe6250]

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

The rules aren't based in common sense. They are based on principles of what is best for the game. That is a critical thing to understand and respect.

It seems we are losing the context of the original post. The premise was not to use common sense as a tool to invent rules or to give oneself an unfair advantage. Using common sense in that manner is simply cheating - end of discussion. However, my decision to call 'my point' on a caught ball behind the baseline (and it is my call) can be governed by my own common sense without causing cheating or gamesmanship. It can also make tennis more enjoyable by being a good sport.

[spiderman123]

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

I have to disagree with that.

Topaz had it right about respecting the rules.

Common sense is often the rationale for people inventing, manipulating, and falsely interpreting rules, especially by people who haven't taken the time to learn the rules.

Or it is used by people who know the rationale behind a particular rule and are willing to use their common sense to resolve a situation quickly and in the friendliest manner. We can definitely agree to disagree but it is difficult for me to appreciate someone blindly following the rules without thinking first why that rule was formed.

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

I really get irritated by people who have never read the rules making up nonsense in the middle of the match that might be persuasive, might even be common sense, but are simply wrong and their common sense bullsh*t invites unnecessary arguments and fights that cheapen the game.

This is different. Not knowing rules is very different from knowing the rules and willing to overlook it at times. Again the example would be catching a ball 4 feet behind baseline in a timed match with 2 min to go to save time perhaps.

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

The rules aren't based in common sense. They are based on principles of what is best for the game. That is a critical thing to understand and respect.

Yes they are. That is how they evolve. If they were not, the sport would never be popular as human intelligence will refuse to accept it.

I will give you an extreme example (please bear in mind that this is an extreme but true example which can be intrapolated to what we are discussing). I think this happened about 15 years(or more) ago in a Japanese (I think)school. The school was very strict about being on time and decided to have a door that closed automatically when the school started. A girl who was desperately trying to make it to school was crushed to death as the door did not open when it touched her.

Yes, the rule of being on time was in the school's best interest.
Yes, that child was running late.

But common sense demanded that the door should have opened then. See how common sense is a driving factor in our lives. That brings me to another example of driving. If people don't use common sense while following traffic rules, there would be many many more accidents.

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

And some of them are counter to common sense, especially the ones that would invite gamesmanship. For example, Its common sense to me that if the server serves a ball in doubles and it hits the opposing net man that the server shouldn't get the point, but the rules say the service team get the point since the ball was never given a chance to bounce.

I can see all kinds of unschooled people using common sense saying "that ball never had a chance of going in. It was out by 6 feet, its a fault" and I would say, "you are absolutely wrong and have never read the rules of tennis"

And I would say in some of these cases that you are not using common sense. That rule is in place to make sure that the doubles partner does not invalidate a good serve by poking their racquet or does not stand so close to the line that the other person loses some of the serving confidence in the fear of hitting or a curved serve being invalidated because it hit the doubles guy.

Now if the person is standing in the doubles alley and is not paying attention to the server for whatever reason, and if the "abide by rules" server decides to hit him with a first serve, the server will get the point, you can throw the book at them but please don't tell me that the server will not lose any respect because of this.

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

If the server wants to deny himself the point and offer a "do over" or take a fault, that's his right but in no way an obligation regardless of common sense and bullying by an indignant opponent using common sense is wrong and it is bad for the game.

Nobody is saying that the server is obligated use common sense. If you read the poll again, it just asks if you would be willing to use common sense in these cases. And your answer is no. The people who support common sense cannot *make* you use common sense. But we can definitely defend our position when someone says common sense is overrated.

[spiderman123]

Originally Posted by tennis-n-sc

This is hilarious. Why have lines?

It is common sense to draw permanent lines to reduce the conflict with line calls. That is how it became a rule.

The idea of this thread was to ask if you will use your common sense to reduce potential conflicts that could be avoided, not what rules you can overlook so that you can increase conflicts.

[tennis-n-sc]

The problem is that when you begin to overlook the rules as written, there is never an end to it.

From the responses, it appears that some adhere to the rules and play the game as it was intended and others do not. No big deal unless they are playing each other.

[randomname]

this is exactly the attitude that gives tennis it's image as an uptight sport

[fe6250]

Originally Posted by randomname

this is exactly the attitude that gives tennis it's image as an uptight sport

No kidding! We allow the McEnroe and the Connors types to behave the way they did and don't put nearly enough emphasis on sportsmanship.

[Supernatural_Serve]

Originally Posted by spiderman123

Or it is used by people who know the rationale behind a particular rule and are willing to use their common sense to resolve a situation quickly and in the friendliest manner. We can definitely agree to disagree but it is difficult for me to appreciate someone blindly following the rules without thinking first why that rule was formed.

This isn't about blindly following the rules.

Its about

- respecting the game and its rules and by doing so elevates the game
- understanding that the rules are there for a reason that sometimes defy common sense, especially the ones that invite gamesmanship if they weren't there
- that its at the selected person's discretion and not obligation to overlook rules, i.e. the person who isn't benefiting from enforcing the rules. Its an important principle enshrined in line calls for example, the benefit of the doubt principle. They are choosing not to enforce rules that they have every right to, that they would benefit from, and by overlooking them give the benefit to their opponent instead.

That's their choice and they can freely choose not to enforce rules against themselves, but its wrong for a person to expect, demand, or require people to overlook rules so they can benefit from them being overlooked, even if good common sense is at work expecting others to blindly go along with their ill sought gain

- that people who choose not to know, learn, understand, or effectively interpret the rules (the area of let's is for example a more complex area of interpretation) shouldn't benefit from ignorance.

I will make one compromise:

in social tennis, maybe common sense has more place than following rules or choosing to overlook some rules assisting the opponent to help everyone have a good time. Its just not worth it. Since in social tennis its not uncommon for people to be ignorant of the rules anyway, so what else do they have but common sense. Nobody knows the rules anyway.

in competitive tennis, tournaments, leagues - forget about it. I'm not going to bend over and allow opponents to introduce gamesmanship or ignorance of rules, or expect me to rule against myself to their benefit because they are "special" in some way. I reserve the right to let my opponent get away with a rule violation, but I won't obligate myself no matter how much common sense the opponent puts out there because behind all that common sense is a motive: I'm special, I want you to give me what I want. I want you to forget about the rules, rule against yourself and rule in my favor.

It's not common sense to go along with their narcissism. That's simply wrong and it hurts the game.

[Hooooon]

Originally Posted by fe6250

There has been some discussions on this board on various rules of USTA amateur tennis (time limits, catching a clearly out ball before it lands, calling minor foot faults, etc..) So do you play completely by the letter of every USTA rule (enforcing them all) OR do you 'bend' the rules where it seems reasonable to you?

(Example - guy catches a ball behind the base line over his head on a fly to keep it from going out of the court area. Do you take the point because 'technically' he caught it before it bounced?)

name a rule that doesn't follow common sense, otherwise this is the whiniest thread ever

[fe6250]

Originally Posted by Hooooon

name a rule that doesn't follow common sense, otherwise this is the whiniest thread ever

Nice to see that Hooooon is his pleasant self as usual. If you bothered to read any of this before posting, the issue is about tick / tack calls like calling it your point on someone for catching a ball that is clearly way out of play. But I'm guessing you're the type that would make that call. Go on to another thread.

[spiderman123]

Originally Posted by Supernatural_Serve

This isn't about blindly following the rules.

Its about

- respecting the game and its rules and by doing so elevates the game
- understanding that the rules are there for a reason that sometimes defy common sense, especially the ones that invite gamesmanship if they weren't there
- that its at the selected person's discretion and not obligation to overlook rules, i.e. the person who isn't benefiting from enforcing the rules. Its an important principle enshrined in line calls for example, the benefit of the doubt principle. They are choosing not to enforce rules that they have every right to, that they would benefit from, and by overlooking them give the benefit to their opponent instead.

That's their choice and they can freely choose not to enforce rules against themselves, but its wrong for a person to expect, demand, or require people to overlook rules so they can benefit from them being overlooked, even if good common sense is at work expecting others to blindly go along with their ill sought gain

- that people who choose not to know, learn, understand, or effectively interpret the rules (the area of let's is for example a more complex area of interpretation) shouldn't benefit from ignorance.

I will make one compromise:

in social tennis, maybe common sense has more place than following rules or choosing to overlook some rules assisting the opponent to help everyone have a good time. Its just not worth it. Since in social tennis its not uncommon for people to be ignorant of the rules anyway, so what else do they have but common sense. Nobody knows the rules anyway.

in competitive tennis, tournaments, leagues - forget about it. I'm not going to bend over and allow opponents to introduce gamesmanship or ignorance of rules, or expect me to rule against myself to their benefit because they are "special" in some way. I reserve the right to let my opponent get away with a rule violation, but I won't obligate myself no matter how much common sense the opponent puts out there because behind all that common sense is a motive: I'm special, I want you to give me what I want. I want you to forget about the rules, rule against yourself and rule in my favor.

It's not common sense to go along with their narcissism. That's simply wrong and it hurts the game.

The discussion is not about bending rules to allow gamesmanship. (i.e. not for the cases where the ball had a good chance of landing in and the opponent caught it. In that case, it is NOT common sense to award the opponent the point.)

The discussion is not about accepting or rejecting your opponents' common sense from their perspective.

The discussion is if you want to use common sense at times when playing USTA amateur tennis to give advantage to your opponent and giving them benefit of doubt.

And from where I look at it, I see USTA league as social tennis. About me wanting to win, that desire is with me whenever I am on court, it does not matter what type of game I am playing. But I am happy to be in common sense lobby.

[Hooooon]

Originally Posted by fe6250

Nice to see that Hooooon is his pleasant self as usual. If you bothered to read any of this before posting, the issue is about tick / tack calls like calling it your point on someone for catching a ball that is clearly way out of play. But I'm guessing you're the type that would make that call. Go on to another thread.

what kind of idiot catches a ball that is going out when he knows it's against the rules? most tennis courts i know of have rear fences to stop temptation.... next "oppressive" rule?

[AlpineCadet]

Originally Posted by Hooooon

what kind of idiot catches a ball that is going out when he knows it's against the rules? most tennis courts i know of have rear fences to stop temptation.... next "oppressive" rule?

But I don't think it makes a difference. The ball is going out no matter what. Taking the point away is just sour grapes. ;(

[Hooooon]

Originally Posted by AlpineCadet

But I don't think it makes a difference. The ball is going out no matter what. Taking the point away is just sour grapes. ;(

where do you draw the line? you're allowing for poo-poo faces to stop balls at their knees when they're standing a foot in front of the baseline. in a game between friends it should be no issue, but when it gets close your instincts should be to let the ball go, which they won't be if you practice breaking the rules.

[tennis-n-sc]

Originally Posted by spiderman123

The discussion is if you want to use common sense at times when playing USTA amateur tennis to give advantage to your opponent and giving them benefit of doubt.

I don't want my opponent giving me anything. I play by the rules and expect the opponent to do so as well. IMO, it's a bit like gimmie putts in golf when the 6" gimmie becomes the 3' gimmie and then the 5' gimmie. Gimmie me break. Play by the rules, putt the da=n thing. SAme thing in tennis.

And from where I look at it, I see USTA league as social tennis. About me wanting to win, that desire is with me whenever I am on court, it does not matter what type of game I am playing. But I am happy to be in common sense lobby.

USTA may be social to you, but it's about the most competetion an ameteur can get in tennis. And if you're happy, I'm happy.

[tennis-n-sc]

Originally Posted by Hooooon

where do you draw the line? you're allowing for poo-poo faces to stop balls at their knees when they're standing a foot in front of the baseline. in a game between friends it should be no issue, but when it gets close your instincts should be to let the ball go, which they won't be if you practice breaking the rules.

Bingo.....

[AlpineCadet]

Originally Posted by Hooooon

you're allowing for poo-poo faces to stop balls at their knees when they're standing a foot in front of the baseline. in a game between friends it should be no issue, but when it gets close your instincts should be to let the ball go, which they won't be if you practice breaking the rules.

LOL. No one in their right mind would stop/hinder a ball like that from landing onto the ground first.

I'm talking about the obvious fly balls that have zero chance of being good, where you are standing many feet behind the baseline. Getting a technical call on the rules from stopping that type of ball is just abuse of the rules, when we ALL know it's long/out. Sour grapes.