Technical question on the one-hander?

[Datacipher]

I don't feel like you are really reading my replies Bill. I addressed many issues in my lengthy posts and you do not reply directly to them.

I'm glad you have a lot of experience with Braden, I thought he was a gentleman and a great great contriubtor to tennis. i also learned a lot from him and his contributions in research stand on their own. But I never said anything about him. I don't advocate his way...nor do I think he knows everything as you suggest. Nor do I think that because you taught for him you are superior to me as you imply.

Nor do I care about the butt cap pointing. Other than being another example of a teaching cue that is not particularly helpful in the teaching/learning style I advocate.

I am glad you say you are not afraid to mix and match teaching styles...that is surprising because to me you have come across as very defensive and judgemental.

I would like to answer your question about the lob, but quite frankly, I can't make much sense of it. First off, I don't know what you mean by "sense". If you mean predict where the ball will land based on it's initial trajectory and the hitting swing, then all people do this automatically...an experienced player will do this better than a beginner. I do not instruct any student to turn his back and run. I tell them to get to the ball. Each student does this differently. If a great deal of ground must be covered quickly a student will tend to turn and run rather than shuffle or backpeddle. This is natural and will happen automatically, it should not be taught unless for some reason an individual has a great deal of difficulty with it. Telling them exactly how to run has the effect I described of making the game mechanical and taking focus away from the most important thing which is to actually find the ball and hit it.

When you ask "What do you think happens when you turn around and run to the back fence while "sensing" where the ball is in the air and will land, then turn around as soon as you hear it bounce and hit an overhead?" I don't understand this as you have fully described the scenario. I assume what will happen is what you describe since you developed the scene....if you are asking me do I think this will be effective for most players consistently. I doubt it. It is the exact opposite of what I teach...there are many variable that will go into the exact landing location and bounce of the lob....most people will not consistently know exactly where the ball will be so they can whirl around and hit it instantly. Again...since I teach finding the ball and contacting as of primary importance..the student can focus ALL his attention on the ball and not worry about footwork and body positioning and simply track the ball so he can make the contact he needs. Usually even running backward... a peripheral view of the ball can be kept so that the student can get to the specific location by any means he can. Tennis is not a complex game of learned movement and biomechanics. DESCRIBING it is complex.

I am intrigued by your EASI tennis reference. I had gone to the sight initially only to find that instead of the revolutionary method they had teased...I found the same old description of pro techniques done in even more mechanical basis. The forehand segment alone was broken down into countless substeps! But I must confess I didn't go far as I discovered the founders Ray and Becky Brown was it? Misleading lies about their background and results so offensive that I wrote them off.

[Bungalo Bill]

Hmmmm...now people are liars about themselves but you have never really talked to them. They have countless steps to hit a forehand but you have never really looked into it. Actually, I only counted five and two of those are the main ones. Pretty simple to me. But I am sure you will never accept that and consider it the "wrong way" to play tennis where a player will be forever demonized into a blackhole not ever knowing what to do and crying out for help when no one will hear - until of course you come around.

Oh and dont let me forget, everyone should throw away all of those Nick B. videos. They are worthless and they will corrupt your minds as well as your childrens minds. You will play 3.5 tennis forever. If you live in a small town build a bonfire and burn em, they will ruin you!

Well, I guess you got me, I cant figure out if your just a frustrated tennis player or the next person to write a book on how to play "real" tennis! LOL

[C_Urala]

Bungalo Bill, with due respect, I think you overreact. just a tiny bit..



Datacipher,
Let's imagine, I came to you and asked to teach me to hit a onehand backhand. (this thread is about this one after all)

What would you suggest?
(Well, let's suppose also we've agreed about the price )

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Bungalo Bill

Hmmmm...now people are liars about themselves but you have never really talked to them. They have countless steps to hit a forehand but you have never really looked into it. Actually, I only counted five and two of those are the main ones. Pretty simple to me. But I am sure you will never accept that and consider it the "wrong way" to play tennis where a player will be forever demonized into a blackhole not ever knowing what to do and crying out for help when no one will hear - until of course you come around.

Oh and dont let me forget, everyone should throw away all of those Nick B. videos. They are worthless and they will corrupt your minds as well as your childrens minds. You will play 3.5 tennis forever. If you live in a small town build a bonfire and burn em, they will ruin you!

Well, I guess you got me, I cant figure out if your just a frustrated tennis player or the next person to write a book on how to play "real" tennis! LOL

You're right I did get you. I think it's pretty obvious who the frustrated tennis player is. You attacked me and I was willing to discuss it with you, but instead of responding to my points as I do to yours, all you have in reply in anger and venom. I backed up everything I said, all you did was make snide comments and run off on tangents with no follow up.

I suspect you're a guy who has watched some videos and read some tennis books and now wants to play tennis pro on the internet. If you are a real tennis pro I think you just start acting like a professional and not a 12yr old on a tirade because his bluff has been called.

As far as Becky Brown goes, ONCE AGAIN I stand by what I said. I found the claims they make about their credentials and results purposely misleading. Since you are part of their circle, I assume you know exactly what I'm talking about. Becky and Ray have a habit of saying "Using the new training methods
developed in research with the author, Becky Brown went from a USTA NTRP
tennis rating of 3.5 to a professional world ranking of 1,069 in less than
four years."
Yes, I will post how she got that ranking if I have to, but I know you wouldn't want me to do that, would you?

AS I STATED, I did peruse their site, however, I was not impressed with the teachings they show, and I most certainly will not pay to see all of it. Particularly when I find their integrity questionable.

Lastly, in answer to your insults, I am not writing a book. Nor do I expect to profit in any way from these postings! It shows how illogical your ranting is when you are the one who made this thread into what it is, based on 1 sentence of advice I placed at the end my original post. I am actually somewhat reluctant to go further with advice because:

1.it takes a lot of time!

2.I dont' know anybody here, nor will I ever know them....why would i waste potentially hours a day giving advice to people who may or may not want it or listen to it

3.I don't want to be selfish, but yes, as long as their are tennis teachers teaching this way, it makes what I have to give more valuable. It also prevents open tournament draws I may enter from getting too crowded!

Which is why until you attacked me...I only made small spur of the moment advice postings involving simple technical facts, avoiding any conversation about teaching methodology. You should have kept your insults to yourself and I would have let you continue to post your " teachings" unimpeded. I know from your posting that you have figured out not to debate or push me on real content. That is wise,I have no agenda and I can back up what I say.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by C_Urala

Bungalo Bill, with due respect, I think you overreact. just a tiny bit..



Datacipher,
Let's imagine, I came to you and asked to teach me to hit a onehand backhand. (this thread is about this one after all)

What would you suggest?
(Well, let's suppose also we've agreed about the price )

Urala, i tried to private message you but it says I cannot. Your request is not easy as describing in words how I teach is much more difficult and may not truly convey how I teach. But mainly, it would also be a lot of work...and I've already spent a lot more time on this board then I would like so if you're just mildly curious or trying to make peace...well let's just forget it.

If you are genuinely interested in some of the ideas/methods I use, I will certainly talk with you about it as one tennis player to another if you have an email I can send to.

[JohnThomas1]

You have perked my curiosity too Datacipher. I am new in the board but have read all the archive articles and must say that Bill gives excellent advice and is always willing to go to great length to answer most questions. I am curious to see your take on the one hander as i try to take in all the info i can and filter it from there. It is also a shot i am continually working on. The Becky Brown slant also has my interest. Tennis lover that i am i have even enjoyed some of you and bill's banter here, there might be a gem or two in all that

[C_Urala]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

Urala, i tried to private message you but it says I cannot. Your request is not easy as describing in words how I teach is much more difficult and may not truly convey how I teach. But mainly, it would also be a lot of work...and I've already spent a lot more time on this board then I would like so if you're just mildly curious or trying to make peace...well let's just forget it.

If you are genuinely interested in some of the ideas/methods I use, I will certainly talk with you about it as one tennis player to another if you have an email I can send to.

Although, 'trying to make peace' is important for me, my highest priority is, of course, to get some new information on making all those shots. And the backhand is one of them.
My e-mail: alex200g@mail.ru but I would ask you to post here, because I believe that I'm not the only one who is interested in it (the last post proves it too).
Thank you in advance.

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

Urala, i tried to private message you but it says I cannot. Your request is not easy as describing in words how I teach is much more difficult and may not truly convey how I teach. But mainly, it would also be a lot of work...and I've already spent a lot more time on this board then I would like so if you're just mildly curious or trying to make peace...well let's just forget it.

If you are genuinely interested in some of the ideas/methods I use, I will certainly talk with you about it as one tennis player to another if you have an email I can send to.

Actually, for someone who says other people are making strokes sound too difficult you should be able to help simplify Urala's request. After saying EASI has "countless" steps to learn a forehand you should enlighten us with your wisdom on how to teach tennis strokes. So lets hear it!

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by C_Urala

Bungalo Bill, with due respect, I think you overreact. just a tiny bit..



Datacipher,
Let's imagine, I came to you and asked to teach me to hit a onehand backhand. (this thread is about this one after all)

What would you suggest?
(Well, let's suppose also we've agreed about the price )

C_Urala,

Hopefully you will read this long winded post.

You are absolutely right about my stance. However, it is not overreacting, it is ridiculous exaggeration that I am doing. I have no disagreements from D on how he teaches strokes. What I have a problem with is how he disrespects other peoples work (Dougherty's, EASI) and makes himself as to be the authority to tell us all that he is the one that needs to tell us how bad everyones work is.

I have never steared anyone wrong with my suggestions and comments on this board. I have provided many different ways to hit the ball so people can get past their mental and physical mental blocks to improve their games. When you email me, I use EASI' s video (I have permission to use them) to help people understand WHY they are hitting a certain way and what they are suppose to do to learn the "modern" stroke the fastest and easiest way. I will take the time to help you. Also, you will benefit further because EASI makes it very easy to analyze a pros strokes. You will know what to look for and it will be clear to you how the biomechanics of a stroke is truly working. Also, watching pros takes on a whole new dimension. You will see what the pros are doing and it will MATCH what you're learning with your own strokes to speed up learning even faster.

I have used material from almost all respected authorities (and continue to do so) and hopefully will never appear to be someone who has "invented" the real way to play tennis. I have made lots of mistakes along the way and have learned a great deal about tennis. I also know when someone is full of it and is giving out misleading information.

No one on this board has invented anything - it is all learned by people who work hard to help this game - the researchers. Braden was more of a researcher then a coach. That is not to say I wont disagree with certain attributes or elements of a persons research, but to discard things the way "D" did - is ludicrous.

D is absolutely wrong that the above contributors to tennis are wrong in their methods or approach to tennis. I have used (not just looked at the site) EASI's tennis instruction to see if I really can teach a student to hit a modern forehand quicker and easier (as the site guarentees and challenges) and the answer is YES! This is not something that is dreamed up but is taken to the courts for true live testing. In fact, I have left behind some of my "Braden" ways that I used to teach on stroke development. Now I am using EASI's stroke development as the main source to improve students play and mixing it with other researchers information. You know what? It works.

Tennis is still a very young sport as far as research is concerned. It is still evolving, without the foundational work that Braden and others have done we would be regressing back to learn what they have founded years ago to be fundamental. But some things have changed and I am always open minded to take things from other researchers so I can learn as much as I can to help people learn tennis from different angles.

As I stated before, my degree is in human learning theory. So I know that one method or wording to you may mean all the difference to you then if I said it or demonstrated it another way. People learn differently and people HAVE BENEFITED FROM NICK B's VIDEOS!!!

Here is an example: Before I teach anything that is in theory I will make sure I can do it first. Remember the argument that I had with Japanese Maple about the "in the chair drill"? He said that that drill was not transferring real learning to normal hitting. That it was a waste of time because he couldnt do it. He also went as far as saying professionals do not lift their center of gravity when they are hitting. That is hogwash. The "in the chair drill" and the learning does tranfer to the court, but it takes time to get the sensation down. But as Braden said, "it is a lesson worth a million dollars"!

Getting back to my example: When Pat Dougherty re-emphasized the hip stretch concept I didnt believe it was the major portion of thrust to help generate racquet head speed and upward movement. I have a very good serve, and never did I consciously feel my hip stretch to generate power. I just didnt think about it.

So as a coach I am not going to risk my reputation on someones theory. I have to put it into practice. For months, I argued back and forth with Pat (through email). He finally told me to do something that (again this was not conscious to me - it was simply natural movement) would help me feel what he was saying better. So I went back on the court to try his recommendations. You know what - it works - I got the sensation that I took for granted. Now I incorporate his teaching in my serving instruction - but I know what my student is suppose to do and feel! I can help my student get the feel.

You see I dont watch a video and then downplay it because I cant teach it nor do it. I will try hard to do it and if it works for me it will works for someone else. But the biggest difference is I know what it feels like. I know it is valid.

The same is true with EASI. I am always looking for ways to teach tennis better. I stumbled on this site and investigated it. But I dont stop with the content on the internet. I call them and talk to them. I aks them questions, I challenge their theories and pose tough questions. I want to see if it their stuff will transer to the courts. I am probing to find out - DOES IT WORK!

I have to understand it and use it and feel it in order to teach it. Even if it is a better system. But I will never say it is wrong or harmful - and base this decision without giving it time to use it or see it from the researchers eyes.

So for three months I practiced the methods and key points on EASI, my stroke is already developed but the focus points where a tad different so it produced a different feel. I wanted to see if I could communicate it and most of all could the student feel it.

You know what? They are right! It works. It has not only improved the speed of learning tennis but also the level of the player. It has helped me convey and improve my tennis teaching to students and they are thankful.

The bottom-line: I dont discount anyones contribution to this game. It is all good - it is a matter whether you understand it and most importantly - can you demonstrate it.

I am not against D's comments on strokes - I am only against his approach and words towards other researchers contributions to the game. That is where we part ways.

[VJH]

I am certainly not trying to stir up the pot here, but I'd like to share with you what I gleaned from the Killer Forehand video:

(For the record, I am a 5.0 player. My USTA team won the 2003 Nationals in Palm Springs)

Creating any tennis video is a difficult endeavor. Not only does one need to cover the building elements of proper stroke mechanics, but proper movement to the ball (and around the court in general) needs to be clearly documented. I'm sure there are many people who would line up to purchase an "Explosive/Modern day/Spanish Red Clay forehand video (select the title you prefer). I am also certain that many fewer would be interested in purchasing a video that discussed movement exclusively....**Yawn**

Although I recognize the importance of movement around the court and how it impacts ones ability to strike the ball cleanly (with control and power) and execute any particular strategy, I'm not likely to plunk down $$ to watch people take angular paths to the ball, or drop step to begin their movement to the ball, or how about a backwards cross over step to assist in running around the backhand to crank that forehand....There is only so much movement information that I'd be willing to pay for at one sitting.

It is obvious that what the folks did with the Bolliettieri videos was to try to incorporate some of the movement information into each of the stoke development tapes. I found that I was given just enough movement information to keep my interest....any more and I'd likely fall asleep with the remote on my chest.

When Nick puts the belt on his student, my take was that he was trying to provide the sensation of keeping a wide base while moving around the court ("like a farrari" as the narrarator puts it). The intent here is to try to teach people to "glide" around the court, as opposed to stampeding around the court. Many feel that this light footedness can't be effectively taught, however, the characteristics of those that do "glide" around the court are established while wearing the belt: Stance slightly wider than shoulder width, Head still, not bobbing, Athletic height about a foot shorter than standard height.

I did not get the sense that Nick was preaching that one ought to eliminate any upward movement during the swing phase of the stroke. Instead, what I think that belt is trying to promote is entering your stroke stance in a balanced manner, while maintaining an athletic posture....After you strike the ball, you will have risen from this stance, but you should return to your athletic posture in a controlled, balanced manner in order to best respond to your opponents reply. I believe that wearing the belt helps provide this sensation.

The real value of the Killer forehand video in my opinion is based on its importance of controlling the center of gravity during movement and stroke production. An uncontrolled center of gravity negatively impacts balance which has exponential negative effect on stroke production. Again, in my opinion, that belt can help create this feeling.

Take a look at the open stance forehand as an example. Those that hit this stroke without control or power move there center of gravity in such a manner that their balance is disturbed, robbing themselves of controlled racket head speed. Their center of gravity moves "outside their stance" which negatively impacts balance.

What do I mean by outside of their stance" Picture a person standing in a doorway. Pretend that person were to lean towards the left doorjamb (so that their feet are in the center of the doorway and their shoulder is leaning against the jamb). This person is technically outside of their stance. How do we know this for sure? Were the left doorjamb to magically disappear, they would tumble to their left.

In tennis, our legs act as the doorjamb, we must fight to keep our center of gravity between our stance. Granted our legs move as does our gravity center while playing tennis. That is why the challenge is to maintain this balance/strong posture while we are gliding across the court.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[JC]

I dont want to stir the waters either, but I bought some of Nick B's videos and do remember Pat D. on this board clarifying his findings on the Sonic Serve and other strokes. We have benefited from these videos which we can watch over and over again. On the Bollistic Backhand video my son like the key points on the twohander and how different grips affect the top/bottom hand dominance. They also serve as good reminder. However, I have been in communication with BB and if those videos he sent me were from EASI, all I can say is keep em coming - they and BB together are awesome. I have learned an awful lot reading BB's emails to me and have improved my tennis game without him ever directly teaching me on the court!

That is coaching talent!