Is this unsportsmanlike?

[sureshs]

I seriously doubt that women at the same NTRP level as men can hit better volleys, speaking in an overall sense. The men are typically much taller, stand closer to the net, poach better, and in general are more aggressive. Playing these no-bounce games or bouncing a ball off the frame don't prove much. Otherwise Bahrami would have been the ATP #1. What counts is what happens in a match. Likewise, I am skeptical about target practice competitions, like getting the ball thru a small ring. It may be an indication of basketball shooting skills, but I don't think that kind of accuracy is needed to win a real tennis match. The court is quite big enough.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by raiden031

I guess we all perceive things differently. What I notice is that my game gives virtually every 3.5 woman a hard time because of the spin and pace. There are plenty of 3.5 guys who my game will not phase much, so I have to win because of athleticism and consistency. There's a big difference between how someone plays against neutral shots and how they play against offensive shots. Thats the biggest difference between 3.5 men and women IMO. In other words, it is far easier to force an error against a 3.5 woman.

So you're saying that (in doubles), you can hit the same passing shot at the 3.5 man at net and a 3.5 woman at net and the woman will be more likely to make a hash of the volley? Really?

I have to say, one of my biggest problems in mixed is that the only time I get to play mixed is during a match. I get a 10-minute warm-up, and then Wham. The match starts, and I have to adjust to different pace and different spin.

Even then, I do get the hang of it, usually around the middle of the second set. If I practiced with 3.5 guys as often as I practice with 3.5 women, I think I wouldn't have this unfortunate adjustment period in my mixed matches.

The problem I have with spin/pace tend to be with groundies and returns. I don't think the spin and pace are as big of a problem when I'm at net. After all, it is much easier to volley a ball that comes with pace than one where you have to create your own pace. Right?

That said, I do have a question of sorts for Raiden: What do 3.5/4.0 women partners bring to the table in mixed?

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

So you're saying that (in doubles), you can hit the same passing shot at the 3.5 man at net and a 3.5 woman at net and the woman will be more likely to make a hash of the volley? Really?

I have to say, one of my biggest problems in mixed is that the only time I get to play mixed is during a match. I get a 10-minute warm-up, and then Wham. The match starts, and I have to adjust to different pace and different spin.

Even then, I do get the hang of it, usually around the middle of the second set. If I practiced with 3.5 guys as often as I practice with 3.5 women, I think I wouldn't have this unfortunate adjustment period in my mixed matches.

The problem I have with spin/pace tend to be with groundies and returns. I don't think the spin and pace are as big of a problem when I'm at net. After all, it is much easier to volley a ball that comes with pace than one where you have to create your own pace. Right?

That said, I do have a question of sorts for Raiden: What do 3.5/4.0 women partners bring to the table in mixed?

I think that a typical 3.5 male will handle balls I hit at them while they're at the net better than a 3.5 female would usually. Not only that, but the 3.5 male can reach more shots because they are more agile, taller, faster, and has developed more anticipation because they are used to dealing with tougher shots.

That said, I do have a question of sorts for Raiden: What do 3.5/4.0 women partners bring to the table in mixed?

What does a 3.0 woman partnered with you add to the table?

By partnering with a 3.5/4.0 woman, its never going to be as intense for me as playing a men's match, thats for sure. Its a more relaxing environment. I get to work on my defensive game more and work on poaching more difficult shots. The better the partner, the more fun the match, male or female. Its not about gender. Its about finding the best partner to play with. I wish I could partner with a female who was better than me. I wish I could face one in singles.

[smoothtennis]

After all, it is much easier to volley a ball that comes with pace than one where you have to create your own pace. Right?

In very general terms - faster shots are easier to volley IF YOU PRACTICE THIS or are used to seeing fast shots at net. For those who are not used to the pace at net, then I think it's harder at first. Do enough fast paced net balls, and one adjusts to make smaller motions and much less racket head movement.

So it depends. Slow balls at net do reveal bad technique - no question about that.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I seriously doubt that women at the same NTRP level as men can hit better volleys, speaking in an overall sense. The men are typically much taller, stand closer to the net, poach better, and in general are more aggressive. Playing these no-bounce games or bouncing a ball off the frame don't prove much. Otherwise Bahrami would have been the ATP #1. What counts is what happens in a match. Likewise, I am skeptical about target practice competitions, like getting the ball thru a small ring. It may be an indication of basketball shooting skills, but I don't think that kind of accuracy is needed to win a real tennis match. The court is quite big enough.

First, standing close to the net, IMHO, is a sign of someone who is *not* comfortable playing the net. The very weakest volleyers can be found there. They will not take a deeper position in the court; it is harder to volley there.

Second, you are kind of assuming the ground you're standing on. The 3.5 guys I have seen the most *do not* poach and are not aggressive at net.

Third, you are correct that what matters is what happens in a match. In my matches, my male partners seem to want me to be conservative in my net play. So that is what I do. If my partner thinks he can hold without my help, I am fine with that. How do we leap to the fact that he is a better net player than I am?

Why have both of my regular partners complimented my net player, with one saying he'd love to trade his BH volley for mine? I refuse to believe that I am some freak of nature because I can play the net and like to do so.

[maverick66]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

In my matches, my male partners seem to want me to be conservative in my net play.

tell them no. doubles is about being active and agressive at the net. i dont care what sex you are if your being conservative its not good for our team.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by raiden031

What does a 3.0 woman partnered with you add to the table?

Plenty.

It depends on the 3.0 woman, as they are individuals. Some bring consistent groundies. Some bring excellent court coverage. Some bring precise placement and overall craftiness. Some bring a weapon, like a big serve or a FH.

My decision to dump 6.5 combo play isn't because my partners are weaker than I am, necessarily. Nor is it that they don't bring anything to the table.

It is because (1) I've done it for five seasons and have learned all I think there is to learn from the experience; (2) it was leading me to develop some bad habits; and (3) I only have so much time for tennis, so if I am going to play at a higher level, something has to give.

Raiden, have you ever played 7.5 mens combo as a 4.0 guy? Don't you think your 3.5 partners bring something to the table, even though they are rated lower than you? Don't they have some elements of their game that are stronger than yours? If they do, is it impossible that a woman playing mixed with you also brings something to the table?

My point is that your female partners probably do bring something to the table. I think it is just a matter of looking for it and appreciating it for its differences.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by maverick66

tell them no. doubles is about being active and agressive at the net. i dont care what sex you are if your being conservative its not good for our team.

Nope, I will tell them yes. The reason is that doubles isn't only about being active and aggressive at net. It is about winning points. If my partner really believes he can serve four big serves and step in and crush the return for a winner, there is no reason for me to poach or do anything but make sure if a floater comes my way that I don't botch it.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

First, standing close to the net, IMHO, is a sign of someone who is *not* comfortable playing the net. The very weakest volleyers can be found there. They will not take a deeper position in the court; it is harder to volley there.

If they are tall enough and cannot be lobbed easily, they stand close to the net and put away the volleys. The Bryans may not stand that close, but they are playing against the top players. The easiest club doubles wins I see are those where the returner has a decent return, but not good enough for the guy standing close to the net not to put it away easily.

It may be harder to volley from a deeper position, but why make it harder in the first place?

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

First, standing close to the net, IMHO, is a sign of someone who is *not* comfortable playing the net. The very weakest volleyers can be found there. They will not take a deeper position in the court; it is harder to volley there.

Second, you are kind of assuming the ground you're standing on. The 3.5 guys I have seen the most *do not* poach and are not aggressive at net.

Third, you are correct that what matters is what happens in a match. In my matches, my male partners seem to want me to be conservative in my net play. So that is what I do. If my partner thinks he can hold without my help, I am fine with that. How do we leap to the fact that he is a better net player than I am?

Why have both of my regular partners complimented my net player, with one saying he'd love to trade his BH volley for mine? I refuse to believe that I am some freak of nature because I can play the net and like to do so.

Im surprised you say they dont poach much especially given the strength of your area.

Sucks that you feel restricted in your play because you are told what to do. I hate when partners tell me how to play. Maybe its time to find a new team for next year where you will find a partner to let you play your game.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by raiden031

Im surprised you say they dont poach much especially given the strength of your area.

Sucks that you feel restricted in your play because you are told what to do. I hate when partners tell me how to play. Maybe its time to find a new team for next year where you will find a partner to let you play your game.

Nah, I doubt the grass is greener elsewhere. After all, even on this board it seems that most guys think women stink at the net. Why would future partners on some other team be any different?

As for whether it sucks to be told not to poach, it doesn't. Hey, if you want to try to hold all by yourself, Mr. Man, go for it. Me, I can stand near the doubles alley and wait for my turn to receive serve.

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Raiden, have you ever played 7.5 mens combo as a 4.0 guy? Don't you think your 3.5 partners bring something to the table, even though they are rated lower than you? Don't they have some elements of their game that are stronger than yours? If they do, is it impossible that a woman playing mixed with you also brings something to the table?

My point is that your female partners probably do bring something to the table. I think it is just a matter of looking for it and appreciating it for its differences.

I never played 7.5 league, but I played in a couple doubles blocks all winter with 3.5s. I have alot more experience with 3.5s than any other level.

Sure there are some 3.5 players that have elements of their game that are better than me. But when it comes down to it, the better the players, the more satisfied I am with the game. Its always going to be more fun with a 4.0 partner than a 3.5 partner, but its not like the 3.5 doesn't bring anything to the table. What they bring to the table will still be offset by some weakness as well. I enjoyed 8.0 mixed, but not really 7.0 or 6.0. So its not like mixed is no fun, its just not fun when the level of play you enjoy isn't there and then other teams can exploit the mismatch.

The reason I played 6.0 and 7.0 even though it wasn't all that fun was 1) to get more match play, 2) to experience a different flavor of the game, and 3) its more social.

[bulldawg]

Keep doing what you're doing. By doing so, you're taking control of the point. If they don't like it, they can stay on the baseline...either way, you're dictating the play.