The Case Of The Tight Service Line Call

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by drakulie

She is referring to the person in question as her partner, additionally, states she doesn't feel this way when playing with other partners. Therefore, I'm taking this as she is playing doubles, and her "doubles partner" is checking where the serve lands when Cindy is returning, which coincidentally, a good partner should be doing. She clearly states in the OP she (Cindy) is returning serve, and her partner was calling some serves long.

Anyway, I strongly feel, based on her continuous posts/threads>>> she has no clue what she is doing out there, and has no business Captaining a team.

I missed the "black/gray/white" post you are referring to. Where is it?

You are right I think. She is the receiver in this case. But her logic was so backwards that I seemed to have adjusted for it by making her the non-receiver in my head.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by drakulie

I missed the "black/gray/white" post you are referring to. Where is it?

#10 ............

It has been a while since there has been a fight, what with the great Mojo leaving the building. Need to spice it up around here.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by sureshs

#10 ............

It has been a while since there has been a fight, what with the great Mojo leaving the building. Need to spice it up around here.

I'm glad you enjoy "fights" Sureshs, but I do not.

I plan to ignore Drakulie and anyone else who behaves similarly. There will be no fight. I have not read his recent posts, on account of how fast I start scrolling when I see he has responded to me.

A few folks here seem to understand what I am saying. Those who don't wish to discuss it should Run Along Like A Good Little Boy.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by sureshs

You are right I think. She is the receiver in this case. But her logic was so backwards that I seemed to have adjusted for it by making her the non-receiver in my head.

LOL. True.

Originally Posted by sureshs

#10 ............

It has been a while since there has been a fight, what with the great Mojo leaving the building. Need to spice it up around here.

Oh, yes. I read it now. She gives herself the luxury of saying she is "gray" because she refuses to learn the rules.

As for NBMJ, yes>>> I miss him too.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I'm glad you enjoy "fights" Sureshs, but I do not.

I plan to ignore Drakulie and anyone else who behaves similarly. There will be no fight. I have not read his recent posts, on account of how fast I start scrolling when I see he has responded to me.

A few folks here seem to understand what I am saying. Those who don't wish to discuss it should Run Along Like A Good Little Boy.

Uhmmm, I do understand what you are saying quite clearly. Suresh is the one who was a bit confused ( I don't blame him after reading the garbage you post).

[ttbrowne]

Originally Posted by blakesq

The problem is geometry. If you are receiving a serve, and the ball catches the "back" of the line, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the receiver to see the ball in or out. The receiver's line of sight is blocked by the ball, and hence, you cannot call a ball in or out if it catches the back of the line, or if it is just barely out. Thus, you should rely on your partner.

Right! I was in a 4.0 USTA match and my partner was recieving, The serve clearly caught the back of the line, he missed and I walked back to recieve and he then called it a fault. I hated to do it but I said no, it was in.
Funny thing was the other team wanted to give him another chance at the ball even though they thought the serve was good!!!! So they served to him again!
Crazy stuff.

[OrangePower]

Back on topic...

As many have already posted, if as the receiver you're sure that a serve was in but your partner called it out, you should overrule your partner immediately. However this is not the situation here, since you're not sure either way but just have some doubts.

How about asking your partner, after some of these calls, something along the lines of "I was so intent on the return that I didn't even see where it landed! How much did it end up missing by?" This way you are not questioning her call, but you're making her think about it and mentally review where she saw the ball land. If she's not able to give a clear response, then maybe you need to sit down and have a chat sometime. But if she replies with confidence without having to think about it too much, then she's probably calling it right.

[sureshs]

When I play doubles and am the non-receiving partner, I stand on the service line and face the other half of the court. As the server starts serving, I manage to watch him/her impact the ball, and also quickly see the ball bounce. I don't think it would be feasible in a pro match, but I find that I need both views to accurately judge whether the ball is in or out. The overall trajectory, plus what happens near the service line. I am then usually completely confident about the call and will try to overrule my partner if he/she contradicts me.

I am thinking now if just focusing on the service line will work.

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by sureshs

When I play doubles and am the non-receiving partner, I stand on the service line and face the other half of the court. As the server starts serving, I manage to watch him/her impact the ball, and also quickly see the ball bounce. I don't think it would be feasible in a pro match, but I find that I need both views to accurately judge whether the ball is in or out. The overall trajectory, plus what happens near the service line. I am then usually completely confident about the call and will try to overrule my partner if he/she contradicts me.

I am thinking now if just focusing on the service line will work.

I think you are right because I practice the same thing (watching the whole trajectory of the ball, not just staring at the line).

Half the time when you are looking at the line if it's a good enough serve, you just see a yellow blur go across the line and obviously you cant call it out, but that doesnt mean it wasnt out.

Maybe it's true that you have a better shot at it then the receiver, but it's still silly to me that everyone thinks it's an actual rule that it's YOUR JOB to call that one. Ive had partners make horrible line calls going the other way as well.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by JavierLW

I think you are right because I practice the same thing (watching the whole trajectory of the ball, not just staring at the line).

Half the time when you are looking at the line if it's a good enough serve, you just see a yellow blur go across the line and obviously you cant call it out, but that doesnt mean it wasnt out.

Maybe it's true that you have a better shot at it then the receiver, but it's still silly to me that everyone thinks it's an actual rule that it's YOUR JOB to call that one. Ive had partners make horrible line calls going the other way as well.

But in a pro match, the line judge looks only at the line, isn't it?

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by blakesq

The problem is geometry. If you are receiving a serve, and the ball catches the "back" of the line, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the receiver to see the ball in or out. The receiver's line of sight is blocked by the ball, and hence, you cannot call a ball in or out if it catches the back of the line, or if it is just barely out. Thus, you should rely on your partner.

This post is correct, of course, but begs the question, why is Cindy having this concern with this partner out of the presumed many partners she's had? Especially when all of the other lines are being called correctly. My guess is that this player is calling the lines correctly and many other partners call them generously.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by raiden031

There are times I have asked my partner where it landed and they said 8" out, yet I swear it hit the line!

Ha!

We need a name for that particular phenomenon, meaning the tendency of a player to grossly exaggerate the distance by which the serve missed. The closer the call, the greater the distance indicated when the player says, "No, man, it was out by [gesture indicating 8"] this much. Not even close!"

[skiracer55]

...not an easy one to answer, but here are my thoughts:

- As someone said at the beginning, start by talking with your partner. It's as simple as "You're calling a lot of serves out that I see | feel like are in...what's your take?" You could get a range of answers all the way from "I'm right on the service line, and I see it better than you do, but if you think I made a mistake, please overrule me." to...I dunno. But I say start there. She's your partner, you really get along well with her, all partners have issues at one point or another, bring it out in the open, and I'll bet you'll come up with a solution that'll make everybody happy.

- I believe, along with a lot of other posters, that the server's partner potentially has a better look at close serves...if he or she is looking at it. I have a blown out left eye (plastic lens replacement, hit in the eye with a bunji cord...long story...), so I already don't see all that well in some situations, as in low light. So if I'm playing doubles, my rule is that if it looks like it caught any part of the line, it's good.

If my partner, on the service line, says "Nope, it was out, I saw it," then I'm fine with that. On the other hand, is the other team going to start screaming bloody murder? I dunno, honestly, what the rules are re who calls what and how soon...I'm talking about The Code, I guess, and especially in the reverse scenario. I call a serve out, my partner says "Uh uh, Richard, clearly in," I just say "Sorry, your point" if I fanned on the return, or "Sorry, please play the serve over" if I hit a return.

- Third, I hear what you're saying about "tight" line calls, sort of, but to an extent, there is no such thing. The ball is either in or out. Since we don't have Shot Spot, however, it comes down to the eyes of whomever made the call. What it sounds like you may be saying, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, is that people who call lines "loose" like I do, tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the other side if I can't see it clearly. I've heard people tell me I give away a fair number of calls in some matches; so be it. I once made a bad call (inadvertently) in a junior match that cost the other kid the match; I'll never do that again, especially now that I've got this eye problem. If I'm sure it's out, even a little bit, then the call is out. If I'm not sure, I have to give it to the other guy. I suppose that calling lines "tight" means something like "I'm not absolutely sure, but it sure looked like it was out, or might be out...so it's out." Opposite philosophy, I suppose. What we'd all like to do, of course, is make the right call, every time. None of us wants to cheat the other team, but we don't want to cheat ourselves, either. Fair enough. I just know that my eyes are no longer good enough to be absolutely sure on a few close calls over the course of the summer, so those balls are in. That's my philosophy, everyone else's may vary...

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by PimpMyGame

Secondly, our league is competitive but nonetheless social. The average player will express frustration if calls are not right but at the same time will not attempt any hooking or gamesmanship. Therefore by gauging my opponents' reactions to calls and comparing them to my "personal" call I know very quickly when my partner is calling too tight.

This is interesting, PimpMyGame. I don't think I factor my opponents' reactions into my assessment of whether we are perhaps not giving benefit of the doubt as a matter of course.

In fact, I think the louder and more quickly the opponents flip out over a dubious call, the more likely I am to stay out of it unless I saw it differently and thus am planning to overrule.

I mean, you know how it goes. Partner calls a close ball out. Opponents charge the net aggressively, scowling, making their case, questioning my partner. That this happens in a match won't make me think my partner is calling lines too tight. Some opponents are just the type to question everything and assume you are hooking them from jump street. I have a former captain who seemed to think the whole world was out to hook her, to the point of telling her players to expect to be hooked by such-and-such team and to make sure to hook them back. So if someone like that is questioning a call, that doesn't mean the call was wrong or even that a reasonable opponent would think it was wrong.

When it (opponents questioning a particular partner's calls) happens over a series of matches, that would give me pause though.

[Ajtat411]

I had this same situation come up in a practice match earlier this week.

My partner was returning serve and I was up at the service box watching the incoming serve and saw that the ball was out about 2 inches. My partner continued to play the ball since it was coming at a decent speed.

If you're the returner, it is very difficult to see balls that land OUT within 2-4 inches if the ball is coming at a fast speed and at a flat trajectory.

When I returned serve there were a couple times when my partner called the ball out even though I thought the ball looked in on the line. These were all line calls.

When you're focusing on returning serve, it is difficult to see line calls that are within inches of being in or out. Usually as a returner I give the benefit of the doubt to the server. When I'm at the service box looking at the line, I'll call it out even when it's 1 inch out because it is what it is. I have the best view of the ball and I'm not moving around like the others.

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

This is interesting, PimpMyGame. I don't think I factor my opponents' reactions into my assessment of whether we are perhaps not giving benefit of the doubt as a matter of course.

In fact, I think the louder and more quickly the opponents flip out over a dubious call, the more likely I am to stay out of it unless I saw it differently and thus am planning to overrule.

I mean, you know how it goes. Partner calls a close ball out. Opponents charge the net aggressively, scowling, making their case, questioning my partner. That this happens in a match won't make me think my partner is calling lines too tight. Some opponents are just the type to question everything and assume you are hooking them from jump street. I have a former captain who seemed to think the whole world was out to hook her, to the point of telling her players to expect to be hooked by such-and-such team and to make sure to hook them back. So if someone like that is questioning a call, that doesn't mean the call was wrong or even that a reasonable opponent would think it was wrong.

When it (opponents questioning a particular partner's calls) happens over a series of matches, that would give me pause though.

...a kind of a different dimension. Looking back at your original post, I gotta say that it sounds to me like your partner isn't conciously hooking the other team...she honestly believe the ball is out, and maybe it is, and as I and others have said, have a talk with her and my money says that you and she will clear the issue up just fine.

As far as hooking generally...it's an ugly thing, and it's what periodically causes me to give up tennis and go back to putting in 100 plus miles a week on my road bike. I want to win as badly as the next player, but I'm not willing to cheat to do it, and if somebody else has to win that badly that they have to resort to cheating...well, I'm going to pick up my marbles and go elsewhere. I really see little or no hooking in the matches I play, which are Men's Open and Men's Age Group tournaments. It's just that when I see or hear about this kind of thing happening in today's tennis, of which NTRP is a large sector...well, all of a sudden, tennis has stopped being a game for me, and has, instead, turned into a knife fight in a phone booth...

[Cindysphinx]

No, I don't think she is hooking on purpose. No way.

Just to set the record straight and defend her honour . . .

[Xisbum]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

defend her honour . . .

Are you English?

[alice301]

Originally Posted by drakulie

Sorry, but her threads, along with her posts display the character of someone who in no way shape or form should be leading a tennis team. She needs to take lessons, learn the rules, and if good enough and asked, kindly accept to be part of a team, rather than Captaining one.

cut it out.

1. we're all learning here
2. i don't want to captain a team, so if someone else wants to, god bless 'em.
3. we all go a little mad sometimes.

[SuperJimmy]

I think it's overall a trust issue. If you are not paying that close attention, instead focusing on the return, and your partner has a better view, why not trust her judgement? Calling the lines tight does not imply the calls are wrong. It might imply the partner has very sharp eyes.

Can you imagine a case where you get your partner thinking about it so much that they start calling out balls in? Heck, some opponents purposely say "are you sure about that", just to see if they can rattle you...even if they knew the right call was made. They will absolutely love it if they see you start questioning your own partner.

Also, I did have a slightly long observation I was going to post, but decided to keep this part short...from what I remember of your previous threads about your doubles partners and their lines calls...several of the situations you have described are very similar (in terms of which player has the better view of the ball, and making the call on the ball). It seemed to me that regardless of who was in better position (and in one case you werent even looking at the line), somehow it was always the partner that made the questionable call. I just think that more of that trust has to be built.