2nd greatest female player of all time

[grafselesfan]

I hope everyone gets atleast one vote. I always feel bad for the people on a poll who get none. I wonder who on earth the "other" vote is for. I am guessing a Justine Henin fan.

[Lionheart392]

Originally Posted by Arafel

If the original post is taken as the starting point, then it's Martina, hands down. However, I have Martina as the greatest ever, and place Evert behind Martina at No. 2, then Graf at 3, then Court at 4.

I really don't see how Evert can be above Graf

[Arafel]

Originally Posted by Lionheart392

I really don't see how Evert can be above Graf

Simple; she had to contend with Martina, another all-time great, for pretty much her entire career. Steffi had Seles for three years, but other than that had lesser players. There was a period of 3-4 years where Chris and Martina won every Slam, and they faced each other in many of the Slams they won.

[Lionheart392]

Originally Posted by Arafel

Simple; she had to contend with Martina, another all-time great, for pretty much her entire career. Steffi had Seles for three years, but other than that had lesser players. There was a period of 3-4 years where Chris and Martina won every Slam, and they faced each other in many of the Slams they won.

But don't you think that just by watching them play in their primes, Graf is the superior player? I mean competition is relevant but it's not Graf's fault that she was so good that she just beat the **** out of everyone.

[lambielspins]

Originally Posted by Arafel

Simple; she had to contend with Martina, another all-time great, for pretty much her entire career. Steffi had Seles for three years, but other than that had lesser players. There was a period of 3-4 years where Chris and Martina won every Slam, and they faced each other in many of the Slams they won.

Martina wasnt that good at all during the main period of Evert's dominance. The only 2 slam finals she reached until 1978 were a very depleted Australian Open (where she was pounded by the mid 70s clear #2 player Goolagong) and a very depleted French Open (where she took Evert to 3 but her draw to the final was still a joke). The fully attended big events around then she couldnt even make a single final, losing to people like 33 year old Court, Betty Stove, Wendy Turnbull, and even Janet Newburry. That covers 4 of the 6 biggest events she played those few years, yeah she did make lose to Chris in 2 others, once after barely getting past Barker. Then even when she did win a couple Wimbledons she still couldnt even make the final anywhere outside Wimbledon until late 81, including losses in limited slam play from 78-81 to people like 16 year old Shriver, pre-prime teenaged newcoming Hana 2 or 3 times in slams, Turnbull again, Hanika.

Chris's biggest competition from 74-77 was Goolagong and an aging King, not Navratilova. Chris's biggest competition in 1980-1981 was clearly a young Austin until Martina also made her move late in 1981. In 78-79 Chris was in a minor slump and there were no great players in top form or near their career peaks so it was kind of an open time amongst the top group fo women.

Chris posted most of her big wins before Martina's prime years began in late 81/82 or so. The Martina of the 70s and very start of the 80s wasnt any better than the old Martina that Graf and Seles faced from 88-93, in fact most likely worse. Nor was the Martina of 74-mid 81 probably any better than even people like Sanchez Vicario, post stabbing Seles, young Hingis, or even Sabatini at her peak (I fully expect Sabatini would have done even better vs Martina those years than in her old age years when she played her and held her own).

[grafselesfan]

This is my all time greatest list:

1. Graf
2. Court
3. Evert
4. Wills Moody
5. Navratilova
6. Lenglen
7. Connolly
8. King
9. Seles
10. Serena Williams

Personally I think Navratilova is given far too much credit for just a 5 year stretch of dominance from 82-86 where she played incredible and dominant tennis. That plus longevity playing at a very good, but definitely not great or near peak level until she was almost 40 which was for me merely partial compensation for the many years before 25 she could have been playing at her prime level and wasnt. This as opposed to true longevity of playing near your best so long like Court, Evert, and Graf all had. Then even in her best 2 years ever choking and having 2 really bad losses (1 especialy) in slams, which Graf of 88-89, 95-96, or Court of 69-70 didnt really do. Anyway she was nowhere near her 82-86 level the rest of her career, and almost all other all time greats mantained an exceptional level close to their peak so much longer than that. Evert was near her best for 12 or 13 years, Navratilova for 4 or 5. Evert gets shafted in peoples views compared to Martina since Martina during her relatively short peak was superior, but IMO overall Evert was the superior player and had the superior career. Basically I see Martina as clearly inferior to all of Graf, Court, and Evert as far as longevity (longevity of great play, not middling pretty good play), consistency of course, versatility (clay record weaker than all others record on any surface, and struggled on rebound ace the bit she got to play on it). As for quality of competition the 82-86 field other than a possibly bit past her prime Evert and the erratic Hana was very weak IMO, and given that Martina herself said in interviews Chris despite her greatness with her playing style she found even easier to play than a much less accomplished player like Hana, young pre-prime Graf, or even Helena really sheds some light on how it was even easier for her given that factor. As for dominance I believe Court's 69-70 and Graf's 88-89 or 95-96 were still more dominant and greater years since they performed greater in slams with 7 wins and 1 final/semi as opposed to 6 wins, a semifinal and a 3rd round loss.

I believe Wills Moody is superior to Lenglen since she had a much longer career and travelled all parts of the World to dominate more than Lenglen did. I gave Connolly and Seles both a boost up of a spot due to their circumstances. I believe Court is very underrated in the U.S, who like to promote Navratilova and Evert as the best while downgrading the foreign greats, with Graf also getting high respect in all time consideration in the U.S only since she lives there now and is married to Agassi.

[Argento full]

Sorry, but i choose Graf

[RFLEGEND]

i pick monica seles as 2nd greatest

[ZhengJieisagoddess]

I voted before I saw your first post. For me, Martina is the greatest ever -- man or woman. Chrissie is the scond greatest woman to play the game.

[boredone3456]

My GOAT List:

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Steffi Graf
3. Chris Evert
4. Margaret Court
5. Helen Wills Moody
6. Suzanne Lenglen
7. Maureen Connolly
8. Billie Jean King
9. Serena Williams
10. Monica Seles

The list is really close among the adjoining names. Martina and Steffi are the top 2 and are really close in that respect, Steffi had the surface dominance, but to me Nav at her best was slightly better plus I give Nav credit for turning her 22-4 trailing H2H with Evert in a winning 43-37. Steffi was amazing though and I have no problem with anyone calling her the greatest, and really any of my top 4 are arguable. Chris gets the edge over Court because of her consistancy, plus Court is depleted a little because of her inflated Australian Numbers (which when compared to the other grass slams are bigger than they should be once the fields are compared). I put Moody above Lenglen because of her having more slams, but its hard to judge them because they played so long ago. Connolly is in a sort of limbo at 7. Truly dominant during her short run, only 2 losses ever in slam competition and first ever calender slam winner. King is sort of stuck in 8th, strong but not in the true top tier. Serena in my mind will pass Seles, especially with 1 more slam title,so I just gave her number 9. King is in her reach to but for me to put Serena at number 8 Serena needs at least 14 slams...and I would push 15 or 16 because she goes to town way to easily on these people today at slams and doesn't have the non slam title numbers really. Monica is 10 now...

[grafselesfan]

One interesting thing in comparing Court and King is at the 3 non Australian slams Court only leads King by 2 (13 to 11) and at Wimbledon and the U.S Open Court surprisingly trails King by 2 (10 to 8 ). It is interesting to wonder how close their slam tallies might be if King played Australia regularly (given the thinking then it is understandable there was no reason for her to) which could have boosted her own slam count and decreased the slam count of Court. Then again Court would have had home crowd advantage in Australia so it might have been hard for King to beat her there that often. Of course there is much more to consider than just pure slam count, especialy for players who started their contending days before 1982 or so, but the perceived gulf between Court and King is still largely 24 slams to 12 as true contemporaries.

[egn]

Martina
Graf
Court
Evert
Moody
Lenglen
BJK
Connolly
Williams
Seles

Like boredone said Serena is low until she either steps it up outside of slams or wins like 3 or 4 more. Once Serena gets to something like 14 or 15 I will bump her up. It makes up for her not giving a crap I guess.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by grafselesfan

One interesting thing in comparing Court and King is at the 3 non Australian slams Court only leads King by 2 (13 to 11) and at Wimbledon and the U.S Open Court surprisingly trails King by 2 (10 to 8 ). It is interesting to wonder how close their slam tallies might be if King played Australia regularly (given the thinking then it is understandable there was no reason for her to) which could have boosted her own slam count and decreased the slam count of Court. Then again Court would have had home crowd advantage in Australia so it might have been hard for King to beat her there that often. Of course there is much more to consider than just pure slam count, especialy for players who started their contending days before 1982 or so, but the perceived gulf between Court and King is still largely 24 slams to 12 as true contemporaries.

Still Court has a Grand Slam, won a lot more tournaments and had to recover from pregnancies which hampered her effectiveness.

[lambielspins]

Originally Posted by egn

Martina
Graf
Court
Evert
Moody
Lenglen
BJK
Connolly
Williams
Seles

Like boredone said Serena is low until she either steps it up outside of slams or wins like 3 or 4 more. Once Serena gets to something like 14 or 15 I will bump her up. It makes up for her not giving a crap I guess.

I wouldnt even put Williams above Seles yet.

[Lionheart392]

Originally Posted by lambielspins

I wouldnt even put Williams above Seles yet.

I personally would, but it's close. There was a thread about this very question not so long ago. Serena does have more slams but more importantly a career slam which I don't believe Seles was capable of achieving even without the stabbing. I understand why people would put Seles higher though.