Clay Court GOAT

timnz · 05-18-2009, 02:48 AM

Hello,

What are people's thoughts on a Clay Court Greatest Player of all time list (as of now)?

My list is:

1/ Borg - 6 French Opens + Monte Carlo, Italian Open wins

2/ Nadal - 4 French Opens + lots of clay court Masters Championships

3/ Rosewall - 6 Major Wins at Roland Garros - (French Amateur 1953, French Open in 1968 + 4 French Pro wins at Roland Garros on Clay)

4/ Guga - 3 French Opens + Other tournaments

5/ Vilas - 1 French Open + Most Clay Court wins ever

6/ Muster - 1 French Open + many other important Tournaments

What are people's thoughts on this list.

hoodjem · 05-18-2009, 03:22 AM

1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Rosewall
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Wilander
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Laver
11. Borotra
12. Drobny
13. Vilas
14. Santana
15. Bruguera
16. Pietrangeli
17. Courier
18. Muster
19. Federer
20. Kodes
21. von Cramm
22. Emerson
23. Nastase
25. Trabert
26. Orantes
27. Panatta
28. Agassi
29. Connors
30. Nusslein
31. Tilden
32. Gimeno
33. Frank Parker
34. Roche
35. Sven Davidson
36. Jack Crawford
37. Fred Perry
38. J.E. Patty
39. Decugis
40. Segura

(Latest version, as of 10-23-12.)

jean pierre · 05-18-2009, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timnz

Hello,

What are people's thoughts on a Clay Court Greatest Player of all time list (as of now)?

My list is:

1/ Borg - 6 French Opens + Monte Carlo, Italian Open wins

2/ Nadal - 4 French Opens + lots of clay court Masters Championships

3/ Rosewall - 6 Major Wins at Roland Garros - (French Amateur 1953, French Open in 1968 + 4 French Pro wins at Roland Garros on Clay)

4/ Guga - 3 French Opens + Other tournaments

5/ Vilas - 1 French Open + Most Clay Court wins ever

6/ Muster - 1 French Open + many other important Tournaments

What are people's thoughts on this list.

Vilas : 1 French + 1 UOpen on clay

timnz · 05-18-2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Thoughtful list. Makes a lot of sense.

The part I can't comprehend is how Rosewall was so good on clay. Good enough to beat Laver. His game was a patient, placement, no power lots of S&V game.

He, like Borg, was quick! This is the common theme of the great Clay Court players, they are great runners around the court. Its hard to beat a guy who can run down everything.

Cenc · 05-18-2009, 04:10 AM

i would put nadal in front of borg
i agree with the other part

pc1 · 05-18-2009, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Thoughtful list. Makes a lot of sense.

The part I can't comprehend is how Rosewall was so good on clay. Good enough to beat Laver. His game was a patient, placement, no power lots of S&V game.

Rosewall actually could hit the ball very powerfully when needed and he hit the ball very early which gave him opponent less reaction time. Rosewall was super consistent, had great mobility with great passing shots, a great volley, excellent touch, a great lob and overhead. Hard for anyone to beat that combination. His backhand slice often dug low into the ground which made it very hard to drive back.

Rosewall was a very hard hitter of the ball in his prime but we tend to think of his later years. Even if you check out the highlights of his 1972 WCT match against Laver, you can see how hard he could hit and how he was often able to move Laver all over the court on the indoor surface.

CyBorg · 05-18-2009, 10:04 AM

I'd include Cochet.

thalivest · 05-18-2009, 11:58 AM

Muster was a great clay courter but he would never be that high. He only won 1 French Open even in a very competitive clay court field, but one without a dominant clay courter like Borg or Nadal. His only great years on clay in general were 1990, 1995, and 1996. He wasnt even really one of the best any other year.

My list would probably be:

1. Borg- atleast right now still is IMO
2. Nadal- will be #1 in future perhaps
3. Rosewall- amazing to wonder how many French Opens he would have won had tennis been Open era back then
4. Cochet
5. LaCoste
6. Kuerten
7. Vilas
8. Lendl

timnz · 05-18-2009, 01:45 PM

You are absolutely right about having Lendl on the list. Also I'd like to add Wilander

So

Borg
Nadal - agree he possibly will be future #1 but this is a snapshot in time
Rosewall
Guga
Lendl
Wilander
Vilas
Muster - put him on the list just because he was such a prolific clay court winner + also 1995 & 1996 his record on clay was Nadal like.

If you add Cochet & Lacoste, then you would also need to add Tony Wilding who was the dominant clay courter in Europe from 1910 to 1914 (2 World Clay Court World championships + 4 or 5 Monte Carlos' and lots of other clay court championships).

pc1 · 05-18-2009, 02:00 PM

Of course Lendl and Wilander should be added but if people add Cochet, I would venture to say that Hans Nusslein would be perhaps be even greater than Cochet on clay. Cochet never won a set from Nusslein and Nusslein according to some sources defeated Vines a good majority of the time on clay.

Here are some quotes about Nusslein from McCauley's book. Tilden decribes Nusslein as "a machine with a brain" and ranked Nusslein very high. Budge said "Nusslein is the finest player I ever saw." Bottom line is that clay was Nusslein's best surface.

I understand the best book on Nusslein is written by Robert Geist but it's in German.

By the way one minor other UNKNOWN player may be in consideration for being a top clay court player, just a little player named Rod Laver. Laver defeated Rosewall in a number of clay tournaments and while Rosewall was superior on clay, Laver did almost always give him a battle on the surface.

I would throw in Nastase too.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see a peak Nastase on red clay with his speed and touch against Nadal's heavy topspin and power?

CyBorg · 05-18-2009, 02:07 PM

You're right about Nusslein, but to be fair he was 9 years older than Cochet.

Also, we shouldn't ignore Von Cramm and even though they're best remembered for excelling on grass Laver and Budge both put together great results on clay. Probably not much worse than Lendl.

Does anyone have Segura's clay court results? I'm struggling to find good information about this.

pc1 · 05-18-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyBorg

You're right about Nusslein, but to be fair he was 9 years older than Cochet.

Also, we shouldn't ignore Von Cramm and even though they're best remembered for excelling on grass Laver and Budge both put together great results on clay. Probably not much worse than Lendl.

Does anyone have Segura's clay court results? I'm struggling to find good information about this.

Von Cramm is an excellent choice and we should not forget about Fred Perry also.

timnz · 05-18-2009, 02:42 PM

Thanks for your input guys, it makes for a really interesting discussion. What is interesting to reflect is how much easier and less controversial it is to put this list together than the general GOAT list. I guess it is because there are more obvious standouts on Clay ie Borg, Nadal and Rosewall.

There was some discussion above about Cochet, Lacoste, Wilding (In my opinion having one of the best clay court records ever), Nusslein, Von Cramm & Perry - great claycourt players all of them - but would any of you put them above any of the names of this list?

Borg
Nadal
Rosewall
Guga
Lendl
Wilander
Vilas
Muster

Q&M son · 10-09-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyBorg

I'd include Cochet.

And Wilding.

ubermeyer · 10-09-2009, 03:41 PM

Federer is 10th

he does well except for nadal

urban · 10-09-2009, 04:44 PM

I would add von Cramm, Drobny, Trabert, Pietrangeli and Santana and Gimeno to the group. I personally rate, as quite all Germans do, von Cramm over Nuesslein. In the few matches between the two, von Cramm came mostly on top. The Santana-Pietrangeli matches are described by Rex Bellamy as concerts between two pianists of the highest class, say Horowitz and Rubinstein. I have seen very few clay results of Segura, his game must be suited to clay. Hoad and Laver did very well on clay, they were the only two players in history, who won the French, Italian and German triple in the same year. Laver may have been not so consistent as Rosewall on clay, but it could very well be, that he had the upper hand in their actual clay head to head, due to some European results in 1963/64. In the open era, they were 4-4 (Bournemouth, RG 1968 (both Rosewall), Amsterdam, RG 1969, Louisville 1970 (all Laver), Washington 1971 (Ro), Houston 1972 (La), Houston 1976, Ro) with the last match played at Houston (and won by Rosewall) in 1976.

hoodjem · 10-10-2009, 06:12 PM

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander
7. Laver
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Borotra
11. Drobny
12. Santana
13. Gimeno

timnz · 10-10-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem

1. Borg
2. Nadal
3. Rosewall
4. Cochet
5. Lendl
6. Wilander
7. Laver
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Borotra
11. Drobny
12. Santana
13. Gimeno

No love for Muster?

I am in pretty much agreement over your top ten. I'd put Muster around 11th on your list, and I'd put Kuerten above Lacoste. I realise that this is all subjective opinion though.

Chopin · 10-10-2009, 08:31 PM

I'd place Guga ahead of Rosewall for sure.

Fed is also definitely top 10.

Chopin · 10-10-2009, 08:37 PM

Don't the TW Historians want to annoint Max Decugis as the GOAT of clay?

05-18-2009, 03:22 AM	#2
hoodjem Legend Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bierlandt Posts: 9,964	1. Nadal 2. Borg 3. Rosewall 4. Wilding 5. Cochet 6. Lendl 7. Wilander 8. Lacoste 9. Kuerten 10. Laver 11. Borotra 12. Drobny 13. Vilas 14. Santana 15. Bruguera 16. Pietrangeli 17. Courier 18. Muster 19. Federer 20. Kodes 21. von Cramm 22. Emerson 23. Nastase 25. Trabert 26. Orantes 27. Panatta 28. Agassi 29. Connors 30. Nusslein 31. Tilden 32. Gimeno 33. Frank Parker 34. Roche 35. Sven Davidson 36. Jack Crawford 37. Fred Perry 38. J.E. Patty 39. Decugis 40. Segura (Latest version, as of 10-23-12.) __________________ The smart man thinks he knows a lot; the wise man is aware that he knows little. Last edited by hoodjem : 10-23-2012 at 03:11 PM.

05-18-2009, 01:45 PM	#9
timnz Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,643	Of Course - Lendl and Wilander You are absolutely right about having Lendl on the list. Also I'd like to add Wilander So Borg Nadal - agree he possibly will be future #1 but this is a snapshot in time Rosewall Guga Lendl Wilander Vilas Muster - put him on the list just because he was such a prolific clay court winner + also 1995 & 1996 his record on clay was Nadal like. If you add Cochet & Lacoste, then you would also need to add Tony Wilding who was the dominant clay courter in Europe from 1910 to 1914 (2 World Clay Court World championships + 4 or 5 Monte Carlos' and lots of other clay court championships). Last edited by timnz : 05-18-2009 at 01:48 PM.

05-18-2009, 02:00 PM	#10
pc1 Legend Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 7,145	Of course Lendl and Wilander should be added but if people add Cochet, I would venture to say that Hans Nusslein would be perhaps be even greater than Cochet on clay. Cochet never won a set from Nusslein and Nusslein according to some sources defeated Vines a good majority of the time on clay. Here are some quotes about Nusslein from McCauley's book. Tilden decribes Nusslein as "a machine with a brain" and ranked Nusslein very high. Budge said "Nusslein is the finest player I ever saw." Bottom line is that clay was Nusslein's best surface. I understand the best book on Nusslein is written by Robert Geist but it's in German. By the way one minor other UNKNOWN player may be in consideration for being a top clay court player, just a little player named Rod Laver. Laver defeated Rosewall in a number of clay tournaments and while Rosewall was superior on clay, Laver did almost always give him a battle on the surface. I would throw in Nastase too. Wouldn't it be interesting to see a peak Nastase on red clay with his speed and touch against Nadal's heavy topspin and power? Last edited by pc1 : 05-18-2009 at 02:13 PM.

05-18-2009, 02:42 PM	#13
timnz Hall Of Fame Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 2,643	But where to place them? Thanks for your input guys, it makes for a really interesting discussion. What is interesting to reflect is how much easier and less controversial it is to put this list together than the general GOAT list. I guess it is because there are more obvious standouts on Clay ie Borg, Nadal and Rosewall. There was some discussion above about Cochet, Lacoste, Wilding (In my opinion having one of the best clay court records ever), Nusslein, Von Cramm & Perry - great claycourt players all of them - but would any of you put them above any of the names of this list? Borg Nadal Rosewall Guga Lendl Wilander Vilas Muster Last edited by timnz : 05-18-2009 at 02:44 PM.

10-10-2009, 06:12 PM	#17
hoodjem Legend Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bierlandt Posts: 9,964	1. Borg 2. Nadal 3. Rosewall 4. Cochet 5. Lendl 6. Wilander 7. Laver 8. Lacoste 9. Kuerten 10. Borotra 11. Drobny 12. Santana 13. Gimeno __________________ The smart man thinks he knows a lot; the wise man is aware that he knows little.