Senior tennis and Ozzie Doubles

[Burt Turkoglu]

Originally Posted by chess9

What level are you playing?

I can hit a very hard forehand down the line, and will often do it returning in regular formation. So, I see some disadvantages for the serving side in such a scenario.

-Robert

I am a 4.5 with a 5.0 tournament win. I START with the aussie and look for weaknesses from there. One of my last matches, I came across a guy who hit very well from both wings into the alley but I found out he couldn't lob the return so we played the I formation with the netman close in....he struggled. Another fellow couldn't return an inside-out backhand from the deuce side if I served out wide. Always PROBE for weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The reason I start out aussie is because I believe they are playing a REASON. Usually because they can hit effective crosscourt returns and/or good down the line lob returns. I've come across players that lob well down the line but cannot lob it well crosscourt. When you learn their strengths on the return, take those shots away. Make them beat you with least favorite returns.

[Burt Turkoglu]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Happy to hear of your good fortune but most >50 year olds around here are very good lobbers and giving them the CC lob would not be pretty, especially if you are playing S&V. In addition as you go up the middle the typical DTL return will be tailing away from the server and he is starting with a 1-2 step disadvantage since he is lining up on the wrong side.

Use with caution.

We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.

[Burt Turkoglu]

Originally Posted by ubermeyer

don't ever play aussie formation. you are leaving half the court open, and with all of the angles in doubles, that's not a good thing.

Aussie takes AWAY the return angles. By the time he makes contact, I am in pretty good position near the service line which brings my strengths in to play. To faster the return, the better for me. However, it is important that I stand next to the hash mark while serving mostly within a 2 feet of the center service line which I've learned to do very well. Again, you need to practice this way a bit.

[Cindysphinx]

Burt, I'm with you.

The big advantage of Aussie is that it forces the returners out of their comfort zone. There are scores of players who have their returns dialed in. You throw them a different look, and they will either: (1) return equally well, or (2) return much more defensively. Either way, Aussie either doesn't hurt or helps.

I mean, the women I play with (most of whom are 50 or older) actually specialize in ad or deuce. I play ad. If someone lines up Aussie against me, all of my most consistent shots do not work. I now have to take my BH up the line or take my FH inside in. Or I have to lob when I don't really want to lob (or I would have been lobbing in regular formation). If I approach, I now have an opponent in the "wrong" spot, further messing me up.

I won't go to pieces, but I will have to work harder to get the point started without an error and will have to play more conservatively.

I say OP should get comfortable with Aussie and see what happens. Even some of my slower partners find they have ample time to cross to deal with the returns.

[Burt Turkoglu]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Burt, I'm with you.

The big advantage of Aussie is that it forces the returners out of their comfort zone. There are scores of players who have their returns dialed in. You throw them a different look, and they will either: (1) return equally well, or (2) return much more defensively. Either way, Aussie either doesn't hurt or helps.

I mean, the women I play with (most of whom are 50 or older) actually specialize in ad or deuce. I play ad. If someone lines up Aussie against me, all of my most consistent shots do not work. I now have to take my BH up the line or take my FH inside in. Or I have to lob when I don't really want to lob (or I would have been lobbing in regular formation). If I approach, I now have an opponent in the "wrong" spot, further messing me up.

I won't go to pieces, but I will have to work harder to get the point started without an error and will have to play more conservatively.

I say OP should get comfortable with Aussie and see what happens. Even some of my slower partners find they have ample time to cross to deal with the returns.

You sound like a very smart 3.5 (-: You made 3 key points that I feel are important....1. Take them out of their comfort zone. 2. Many doubles players specialize on one side. Look at one of history's best doubles player, John McEnroe. Have you ever seen him on the deuce side? Ever? He has a great block inside-out backhand from the ad side. And a great topspin forehand return. Both always seems to find the netrusher's feet. I saw his last pro match a couple of years ago. He played the ad side with Bjorkman in the deuce. They won the tournament. He returned great in the early rounds but in the last set of the semis, the other team went "I" against him and he struggled mightily. In the finals, they used the "I" and again he struggled. Fortunately, Bjorkman returned out of his mind. Anyway, this formation took away his signature shots. And number 3....to "get comfortable with Aussie" so that YOU are comfortable with it. The Aussie is certainly not the "end all" formation but it is, at the very least a viable Plan B when you are struggling holding serve. After matches, I've had opponents admit that they didn't like it.

[LuckyR]

Originally Posted by Burt Turkoglu

We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.

If the netman positions deep in the Aussie, then the netman would be more vulnerable to dipper returns right at them (since the net is lower there from the Aussie). If your lobbers didn't figure that out, then I am not suprised you killed them. But again, I would use with caution routinely.

[Cindysphinx]

If they can lob in Aussie formation and make the server scramble, they can do it in regular. Aussie has the advantage that the server lines up in the middle and therefore can go either way to track down lobs.

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by chess9

My partner wants to play Ozzie doubles formation this Winter for our Senior league (50+). I'm a bit reluctant as I see the footwork issues on crossovers might be a bit too much for him in particular, and sometimes even for me. I'm not as fast as I once was. I'm thinking, KISS here.

As an occasional attempt to fluster some team, say, when we are losing, I think it's worth trying, but is it really superior for two right handers with combined ages of 130 years?

I am a singles player primarily, but I'm being pulled into more and more doubles. It's probably the wheel chair and oxygen canister....

Does anyone have a recommendation, bookwise, or cd, or web site?

-Robert

Hey Robert,

Just to clarify, are you referring to the I formation or the Aussie formation? They are different and used for different purposes. Sometimes people get the names mixed up.

One of the main purposes for the Aussie is to take the crosscourt return away from a good returner. The netman usually stays and the serve just moves to the opposite from a normal formation.

The I formation can be mixed in any timeand is useful for multiple purposes.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Burt Turkoglu

We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.

Fast helps, but really you don't even have to be fast if you recognize lobs early and get those hips and shoulders turned quick, opposed to watching and waddling back. but I'm not telling you anything as you clearly have the Right mindset against the lob for doubles.
I, like you, love to make them lob.

[chess9]

Originally Posted by Burt Turkoglu

I am a 4.5 with a 5.0 tournament win. I START with the aussie and look for weaknesses from there. One of my last matches, I came across a guy who hit very well from both wings into the alley but I found out he couldn't lob the return so we played the I formation with the netman close in....he struggled. Another fellow couldn't return an inside-out backhand from the deuce side if I served out wide. Always PROBE for weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The reason I start out aussie is because I believe they are playing a REASON. Usually because they can hit effective crosscourt returns and/or good down the line lob returns. I've come across players that lob well down the line but cannot lob it well crosscourt. When you learn their strengths on the return, take those shots away. Make them beat you with least favorite returns.

Very good analysis.

-Robert

[chess9]

Originally Posted by Burt Turkoglu

We WANT the lob. We kill lobbers. I am 56 but still fast. We are quick to notice good lobbers and position ourselves a little deeper in the court or poach frequently so the server can take the lob as an easy approach shot. You must be patient with your overheads. Play safe and don't overhit them. Wait for an easy ball to crush. Many players who begin to lob too much lose their over and down drives. Played a couple of really good senior lobbers last year. We won two and two but it took us over 2 hours. Not a pretty match but we were very patient. Settle in for a siege.

Yes, I've found the same. Doubles is a game of patience and explosion, eh?

-Robert

[chess9]

Originally Posted by Bungalo Bill

Hey Robert,

Just to clarify, are you referring to the I formation or the Aussie formation? They are different and used for different purposes. Sometimes people get the names mixed up.

One of the main purposes for the Aussie is to take the crosscourt return away from a good returner. The netman usually stays and the serve just moves to the opposite from a normal formation.

The I formation can be mixed in any timeand is useful for multiple purposes.

I was referring to Aussie. We are going to be playing a lot of steady returners as these guys are all close to 4.5 in doubles and 50-60 years old. Both of us are fairly hard servers with consistent serves, though I can hit a big twist or a 100 mph flat serve, so we usually get a pop up if my first serve goes in.

I would say the biggest problem for our team is MY shot selection. I have an extensive singles repertoire, but none in doubles. Historically, I've loathed doubles. But, I'm trying to appreciate doubles more now that I no longer have mother's milk in my mouth. When I get old I might play doubles even more. Anyway, I love hitting down the line at 80 mph and in doubles that's often not the wise shot, obviously. But, I just love giving the guy at the net a hot ball to handle. Too much testosterone, still....

-Robert

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by chess9

I was referring to Aussie. We are going to be playing a lot of steady returners as these guys are all close to 4.5 in doubles and 50-60 years old. Both of us are fairly hard servers with consistent serves, though I can hit a big twist or a 100 mph flat serve, so we usually get a pop up if my first serve goes in.

I would say the biggest problem for our team is MY shot selection. I have an extensive singles repertoire, but none in doubles. Historically, I've loathed doubles. But, I'm trying to appreciate doubles more now that I no longer have mother's milk in my mouth. When I get old I might play doubles even more. Anyway, I love hitting down the line at 80 mph and in doubles that's often not the wise shot, obviously. But, I just love giving the guy at the net a hot ball to handle. Too much testosterone, still....

-Robert

I love doubles when my partner and I are in sync and moving. I hate doubles when we aren't and are wrestling with our individual personalities and styles.

So Aussie style? Well, here is my take as doubles is what I have played nearly all my time with tennis. I am an okay singles player but doubles is my game.

AUSSIE FORMATION
You already know that the Aussie formation is used to put pressure on your opponents who have real good crosscourt returns. It can be used as a poaching formation especially if your opponent is not a good straight-away hitter and is leaving some balls short that your partner can either take the ball instinctively on a poach or from a planned play. You would simply come straight in as normal.

The Aussie formation places you and your partner in a switched position, so you have to be aware of somethings. Because there is a high chance your partner is gonna hit the ball (unless the returner demonstrates he is good straight-away returner as well), he is going to have to know how to handle the ball that will be hit to him.

1. He needs to have a good up the middle volley.

2. He needs to have good reflexes and challenge the opponents netman who he is straight across from and be ready for a quick exchange. Obviously, your partner needs to have good command of his volleys and footwork.

The bottom-line is the Aussie is all about ending the point quickly and your netman needs to know he just cant "get it" back.

As the server, you can position yourself two ways. Either slide over and stay back, or come in diagnolly and line-up to take net on the opposite side as your partner. If you stay back, and you are serving to the AD court, you can use the stay back strategy and use your strong DTL type forehand to be aggresive on your opponents returner who hit it straight away back to you.

One of the reasons you want to end the point quickly is because you are in a switched position. This means you are vulnerable to be poached on if you do not take command of the point. If you choose to stay back and take advantage of your forehand, then you need to know that your weakness in that formation is diagnolly between both of you.

If you decide to come up to net, you eliminate the switched position and you play net.

The serve for this formation is very important. You have to have a good one and it is one of the few times you dont necessarily want to hit down the T. Instead, for the Australian, you wan to hit into the body and jam them. You dont want them to get a good cut at the ball. So the best serve is into the hips.

The Aussie should be used sparingly as it has holes in the defense of the formation. IMO, it is the most aggressive of all formations and you are basically telling your opponent that "this point is going to be over quickly." Because the Aussie is an aggresive formation you also increase your risk of losing the point as well. This formation is a "go for it and see what happens" kind of formation.

If you do decide to poach using the formation and get out of the switched position do it on a good serve and the side of the court where you can handle the incoming ball from your serve.

[chess9]

Originally Posted by Bungalo Bill

I love doubles when my partner and I are in sync and moving. I hate doubles when we aren't and are wrestling with our individual personalities and styles.

So Aussie style? Well, he is my take as doubles is what I have played nearly all my time with tennis. I am an okay singles player but doubles is my game.

AUSSIE FORMATION
You already know that the Aussie formation is used to put pressure on your opponents who have real good crosscourt returns. It can be used as a poaching formation especially if your opponent is not a good straight-away hitter and is leaving some balls short that you partner can either take the ball instinctively on a poach or from a planned play. You would simply come straight in as normal.

The Aussie formation places you and your partner in a switched position, so you have to be aware of somethings. Because there is a high chance your partner is gonna hit the ball (unless the returner demonstrates he is good straight-away returner as well), he is going to have to know how to handle the ball that will be hit to him.

1. He needs to have a good up the middle volley.

2. He needs to have good reflexes and challenge the opponents netman who he is straight across from and be ready for a quick exchange. Obviously, your partner needs to have good command of his volleys and footwork.

The bottom-line is the Aussie is all about ending the point quickly and your netman needs to know he just cant "get it" back.

As the server, you can position yourself two ways. Either slide over and stay back, or come in diagnolly and line-up to take net on the opposite side as your partner. If you stay back, and you are serving to the AD court, you can use the stay back strategy and use your strong DTL type forehand to be aggresive on your opponents returner who hit it straight away back to you.

One of the reasons you want to end the point quickly is because you are in a switched position. This means you are vulnerable to be poached on if you do not take command of the point. If you choose to stay back and take advantage of your forehand, then you need to know that your weakness in that formation is diagnolly between both of you.

If you decide to come up to net, you eliminate the switched position and you play net.

The serve for this formation is very important. You have to have a good one and it is one of the few times you dont necessarily want to hit down the T. Instead, for the Australian, you wan to hit into the body and jam them. You dont want them to get a good cut at the ball. So the best serve is into the hips.

The Aussie should be used sparingly as it has holes in the defense of the formation. IMO, it is the most aggressive of all formations and you are basically telling your opponent that "this point is going to be over quickly." Because the Aussie is an aggresive formation you also increase your risk of losing the point as well. This formation is a "go for it and see what happens" kind of formation.

If you do decide to poach using the formation and get out of the switched position do it on a good serve and the side of the court where you can handle the incoming ball from your serve.

That's great stuff, BB! Many thanks. I sent that to my doubles partner. Based on that, and his lack of footspeed, I'm loathe to recommend Aussie Doubles, but we'll try it in practice.

-Robert

[moroni]

it would be an incredible solution (if you were playing in prince of tennis) real life nope it requires more atheletism and fitness than standard doubles formation ,, something you lack at this ag i suppose,, so go standard ,,,you can go Australian in some points to mix it up but not all the points

[chess9]

Originally Posted by moroni

it would be an incredible solution (if you were playing in prince of tennis) real life nope it requires more atheletism and fitness than standard doubles formation ,, something you lack at this ag i suppose,, so go standard ,,,you can go Australian in some points to mix it up but not all the points

Funny! I'd love to be the PrinceOfTennis! I agree about the athleticism. That's a good word for what's missing at my age.

-Robert

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by chess9

That's great stuff, BB! Many thanks. I sent that to my doubles partner. Based on that, and his lack of footspeed, I'm loathe to recommend Aussie Doubles, but we'll try it in practice.

-Robert

But you can use the I formation. That is a very versatile formation and you might want to use it when the straight-away return of your opponent goes to your forehand. So if you are right handed, that would be the AD side.

[chess9]

Originally Posted by Bungalo Bill

But you can use the I formation. That is a very versatile formation and you might want to use it when the straight-away return of your opponent goes to your forehand. So if you are right handed, that would be the AD side.

I play the ad side.

I'll look at the I formation as a possibility, but I've never played it, and the issues look similar, at first blush.

-Robert

[Bungalo Bill]

Originally Posted by chess9

I play the ad side.

I'll look at the I formation as a possibility, but I've never played it, and the issues look similar, at first blush.

-Robert

At first blush they do. So does certain openings in chess.

The I formation can be used any time. I would suggest you have a good up the T serve when you use it. Mix it in because you dont have to poach or get in in a switched position if you dont want too.

[Cindysphinx]

Hey, Chess?

I played some 7.0 mixed doubles yesterday. Opponents were a 4.0 guy in the deuce court; 3.0 woman in the ad court.

Throughout the first set, the guys held and the women were broken. This left us at 5-5 with the other woman stepping up to serve. We broke her. Which meant it was up to me to serve out the set. :gulp :

I was having all kinds of trouble on my serve. I hadn't played in six weeks and I had zero footwork, which mean zero groundstrokes. The 4.0 was crushing my serve back to me almost before I regained my balance, and I wasn't getting these balls back.

I suggested to my partner (3.5 guy who is not comfortable at net) that he line up Australian, which he had never heard of. I explained it quickly. On the first point, the 4.0 sent his return to my partner, who missed the volley. On subsequent points, the 4.0 decided instead to take his return DTL.

And guess what? He missed. He missed once into the net and once long. I'll never know why he missed, but I suppose that having to take his FH to his alley on a ball curving toward him up the middle threw him off just enough. Those errors were what we needed for me to hold, and we won the set.

Which backs up the theory that Australian really can disrupt a grooved returner.