Can't Poach Off Of A Weak Serve? No Excuses.

[JavierLW]

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

The first hurdle for using signalled poaches is having a partner that doesn't get flustered by the extra thinking and can still get their serves into the box.

Once you pass that hurdle, I like the idea of signalling every time. It let's your opponents know that you are at least trying to follow a strategy. Even if you signal "stay" 95% of the time because you fear the returner, I think you are in better shape than if you abandon the signals.

That's actually the hurdle I couldnt get past a couple seasons ago, and I think you're right that it's probably the only one.

When I serve I like to be in a rhythm. If we do signal, it has to be part of the rhythm or routine and the more I do it the more it seems to be "normal" to me and it doesnt screw up my serve.

Like the usual thing where the net guy holds up the signal back there, waits for the server to see it and hears him say "OK", and then the serve is free to go with their serve.

But over a year ago, I had a guy as a partner for much of the year that couldnt do that.

When he was serving Id hold the signal out for him (I do this right away so he doesnt have to wait for me), and sometimes he'd forget to check the signal and served anyway. (which meant I wasnt ready at the net)

But the worst was when I was serving.

I would get ready to serve and I would look for it and he was taking FOREVER to even stand to where he normally plays the box from. Then he'd even move his arm REALLY slowly to give the signal as if he was hiding it from me (Im not sure who else he was being "sneaky" about not seeing it right away), so Id wait what seemed like forever until I could say "OK".

(and sometimes he'd forget to signal, so I had to ask "signal???", and that's if I didnt just give up and serve anyway)

It just really broke up the rhythm and ruined any momentum we might have.

We went thru an entire season like this. I tryed nicely to explain to him several times that he would be helping out a lot if he just got it out earlier, but he's the sort of guy who just doesnt change his habits very well so it didnt take.

Finally near the end of the season we were playing a huge match against the first place team where we really could use a win to still have a chance at first, and I got fed up with it after the first set, and told him I dont want to do signallying anymore.

I started serving great all the sudden. But then he came up with this: "let's just pretend to signal".

I said okay without thinking, and sure enough that didnt help much because the whole part of it that screwed it up was having to wait around forever before I could say "OK".

So I just started serving anyway when I felt like it. If he complained I just told him that "hey, that happens to be when I want the signal by....". (we were after all pretending anyway)

Im sure this is a small point but if a team is doing this, I think it's far better when the server doesnt have to WAIT for his partner. Let the server serve at their own pace.

Which can be easily done by making sure you have that signal out right away. Maybe they are back there fetching stray balls, or counting hairs on the ball to figure out the one with the most spin potential or whatever, but who cares??? Just have it out there for when they are ready....

Just my two cents.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

The first hurdle for using signalled poaches is having a partner that doesn't get flustered by the extra thinking and can still get their serves into the box.

Yes, exactly! You totally proved my point, probably without knowing that you did.

I have frequently heard the objection to Australian or signaling that "it will mess up my serve." Yes, maybe so.

But that just shows how much *any* change in tactics or formation can rattle a player. If signaling or Aussie formation can cause my own partner to get the yips, imagine what it will do to an opponent?

That tears it. I have been way too predictable in my doubles, and I hereby resolve to do better. Any partner who is unwilling to mix in some Australian or learn signaled poaches is probably not the right partner for The New Me.

[Geezer Guy]

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

The first hurdle for using signalled poaches is having a partner that doesn't get flustered by the extra thinking and can still get their serves into the box.

I used to play with a guy who insisted on signaling to tell me where to serve. Based on that he'd either poach or he wouldn't - but not a signaled poach, a spontaneous poach. Man, did I hate that! Back then I could "usually" hit within 5 feet or so of whatever spot I was aiming at when I wasn't under pressure, but under the pressure of a tight match and then the added pressure of "calling my shots", and my serves were all over the place. I'll say this. He was a great poacher and had excellent hands and touch volley's - and we usually won together but it was hell on my nerves.

He'd call for a "down the T" shot andy my serve would go wide, the return would float a little bit and he'd dart over there and hit this little drop volley that would die about 2 feet from the net. Then he'd give me a look like "What the hell?".

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Played again today, this time in clinic with four and a pro. Again, partner has a weak serve. Just lofts it into the middle of the box, near the service line.

One opponent has really solid groundstrokes -- lots of pace and spin, and she punishes weak serves. We were working on a different skill in clinic today, so I did not propose signaled poaches. Instead, I told my partner I would poach if the serve was up the middle.

I missed every single poach.

The problem was that I had too much to think about. "Was the serve up the middle?" "Was the returner going to burn me down the line?" "Oooh, that crosscourt ball is kind of high; maybe I should let it go through to my partner." I was late on every poach, which is why I missed.

Had those been signaled poaches, I could have committed and hit my volleys with authority.

...go back to your original post, which was about how poaching is okay, even on a weak serve. Well...yes, and no. In this clinic, you said, "No signals...but I'll go for a poach if and when the serve happens to go up the middle." Which means you're in no more of a position to figure out what the right thing to do is than your opponents. That's not something I, or you, would do in a match. You did it in a clinic to work on your poaching skills, which is fine. But since you couldn't depend on your partner to do something predictable with the serve...guess what? You were at a disadvantage on the poach for all the reasons you just cited.

Go back and take a look at what I said, above. Good poaching strategy doesn't depend on your partner having a good serve...but it sure helps. Poaching is a real come-to-Jesus move. Once you've decided to poach, there's no thinking involved. Watch the ball, hit it hard, and don't think, right? Moving to a poach kind of implies that your partner knows you're going to poach and is going to cover the hole you're leaving...so that you can move with all possible dispatch to the, um, poach. Otherwise, why bother?

So this is less of a discussion about poaching and more of a discussion about partnership in doubles. I have no doubt that you understand poaching and how it can be effective, and how to successfully implement it in a doubles partnership, at whatever level. Your challenge now is to find a partner that you can, um, partner with...

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

.Once you've decided to poach, there's no thinking involved. Watch the ball, hit it hard, and don't think, right? Moving to a poach kind of implies that your partner knows you're going to poach and is going to cover the hole you're leaving...so that you can move with all possible dispatch to the, um, poach. Otherwise, why bother?

Hmmmm. Maybe we need to take a step backward.

Signaled poaching I understand. You signal go, and you go no matter what.

For an opportunistic poach, you size up the situation before you decide to go. Otherwise, it's no different from a signaled poach, right? Stay if the serve is wide, stay if the return is too high or too far wide, bail out at the last second and duck, if you choose.

I always figured one big advantage of the signaled (or planned) poach is that all of that white noise is filtered out of your head. So you can poach with more confidence and purpose, and the only time your partner can roll her eyes is if you don't get over there fast enough.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Geezer Guy

I
He'd call for a "down the T" shot andy my serve would go wide, the return would float a little bit and he'd dart over there and hit this little drop volley that would die about 2 feet from the net. Then he'd give me a look like "What the hell?".

Ha!

Ah, the partners who treat you like you're a short order cook.

"OK, Cindy. Let's have a slice serve up the T to the backhand, and put something on it this time. The returner looked slow in the warm-up, so on your second shot, let's have a short BH slice drop volley into the near corner. Don't forget to follow it in. I'll be right here if you need me."

Gah!

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I'm not sure I'm willing to let 4.0+ guys off quite so easily.

If you're a 4.0 guy, you should have 4.0 volleys. That means you should be able to poach off of your partner's weak serve.

I mean, you're at the net anyway, right? This means you think there is some advantage to being there rather than playing two back. Well, if you're up there, they could crush the return right at you. I think you are actually in a stronger position if you are poaching, faking and moving rather than sitting there hoping that your partner will hit a good ball off of the return.

If your partner has a creampuff, distraction is the best defense. Might as well use it.

As far as the idea that your female partner is too slow to cross behind you . . . maybe. But again, if she is that slow, she won't do much better with a sharply angled crosscourt return when the opponent has all day to set up without fear that the net man will do anything.

Plus, don't forget that 50% of the returns will be struck by the opposing female. Why stand still when she's hitting?

If what you are saying was true, then why is every male player I've been against from 3.5-4.5 unable to do crap at the net when their mixed partner is serving to me? Because they are prone to getting burnt down the alley or forced to volley from well below the net every single time. They are better off being more selective on the poaches.

I think its alot easier to poach the opposing females returns because they are usually the lesser skilled player and don't hit as hard. But even so, I will end up poaching alot of their returns from below the net because the serve is too weak if I try to poach them.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by raiden031

If what you are saying was true, then why is every male player I've been against from 3.5-4.5 unable to do crap at the net when their mixed partner is serving to me?

I will grant you that a lot of 3.5-4.0 guys (I don't know about 4.5) don't do much at net.

However.

I will be playing my next two mixed 7.0 matches with my Most Favorite Partner. Why is he Most Favorite?

'Cause he gets after it when I am serving and he is at net. He is a nuisance. He has good hands. Opponents have to go through him to get to me. He doesn't just raise the white flag and wait for me to beat the 3.5/4.0 guy with my groundstrokes.

I wouldn't say that male mixed players can't do crap at net when their female partner is serving to the other guy. Those with good volleys and good hands don't just concede half of the points when their female partner is serving and then expect to win the match.

[raiden031]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I wouldn't say that male mixed players can't do crap at net when their female partner is serving to the other guy. Those with good volleys and good hands don't just concede half of the points when their female partner is serving and then expect to win the match.

Its not conceding half the points unless their partner is unable to keep the ball in play after the serve. Its just waiting for a better, less risky time to poach a shot.

[Ripper014]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I will grant you that a lot of 3.5-4.0 guys (I don't know about 4.5) don't do much at net.

However.

I will be playing my next two mixed 7.0 matches with my Most Favorite Partner. Why is he Most Favorite?

'Cause he gets after it when I am serving and he is at net. He is a nuisance. He has good hands. Opponents have to go through him to get to me. He doesn't just raise the white flag and wait for me to beat the 3.5/4.0 guy with my groundstrokes.

I wouldn't say that male mixed players can't do crap at net when their female partner is serving to the other guy. Those with good volleys and good hands don't just concede half of the points when their female partner is serving and then expect to win the match.

When I play mixed or even with a weaker partner it is seldom that I will take over a match on my own. I purposely force my partner to play shots... it is the only way you can improve. You are never going to improve if you are going to win on the coat tails of your partner. You may win, but you will never improve. Last weekend during a men's night I was invited to... we played rotating matches with multiple partners with a no-ad system. In each case I had my partner play the no-ad point, and in each case but one my partners came through with a big return giving us the opportunity to win the game.

Note that each time the opposing teams ask us if we were sure we wanted my parther to return as it was a no-ad scoring system, and I assured them that we would be fine and that my partner had yet to lose a game point yet.

Its great to have a partner that can dominate a match but I have enjoyed myself the most when all 4 players are competitive and you have to battle for every point, having it all come down to a few points at the end of the match.

[Ken Honecker]

It's not poaching, the whole net is MINE!

[Blade0324]

Some interesting points made in this thread for sure. I have used signals pretty often with a couple of partners but numerous others that don't want to hassle with it and just want to do what they want. I find this difficult because they will often cut in front of me as I'm following a serve in to the net and then I'm forced to change directions to cover the other side of the court when I was not expecting to etc.

I much prefer signaling but only signaling poach, stay or fake. Keep it simple. Also I don't want a partner to suggest where I should serve. My serve strategy is largely based on how the opponent is playing, what their weakness is and what serve has been most effective. Also I go by feel much of the time. I've had partners that often will want to tell me to serve up the middle if they are poaching etc.
Seems to me that the best strategy is for the server to tell their partner before preparing to serve where they are serving for 1st and 1nd serves and possibly even what kind of serve they are going to hit (flat, slice, kicker etc). Then the net person can signal what they feel they are going to do based on the return that is anticipated. I would never suggest that the net person dictate to the server where to serve.

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Hmmmm. Maybe we need to take a step backward.

Signaled poaching I understand. You signal go, and you go no matter what.

For an opportunistic poach, you size up the situation before you decide to go. Otherwise, it's no different from a signaled poach, right? Stay if the serve is wide, stay if the return is too high or too far wide, bail out at the last second and duck, if you choose.

I always figured one big advantage of the signaled (or planned) poach is that all of that white noise is filtered out of your head. So you can poach with more confidence and purpose, and the only time your partner can roll her eyes is if you don't get over there fast enough.

...that's a very good point. If the opportunity presents itself, by all means, go for the poach and knock off a winner...a much better strategy than saying "Sure, it looks like a good deal, but I can't color outside the lines, because I didn't signal a poach...can I? Can I?" If I'm at the net, and my partner is in the back court, and a wounded duck approaches the net, I'm definitely going to yell "Mine!" and go for it, and so should you. I guess that's the #1 rule of tennis, which is "Things change...often quickly, so always be ready to take advantage of a situation that develops in your favor."

So it sounds like in your clinic maybe you overestimated the opportunity and shanked a few. So what? I'd much rather have a partner who looks for opportunities and takes advantage of them, instead of blending into the nearest net post...

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Blade0324

I find this difficult because they will often cut in front of me as I'm following a serve in to the net and then I'm forced to change directions to cover the other side of the court when I was not expecting to etc.

Yeah, that was the interesting part.

Because we were serving, the returners were tight. Their returns were more hesitant and floaty -- the perfect balls to take out of the air while coming to the net. That's what I was doing with great success when my partner didn't signal a poach. When she poached, I stayed back and because I had a mental head start, I was able to reach the DTL shots.

At my level, many servers are somewhat indiscriminate with their placement (me too -- my serve often doesn't go where I want it to go unless I take a lot off of it). I'd rather signal poach and then be forced to deal with a good-quality wide serve than a push serve up the middle.

The other surprising thing is that I had assumed the returners would be able to know whether there was a signaled poach happening based on whether the server crossed. This didn't seem to be a problem. I guess there just wasn't time to process all of that extra movement. From the returner's perspective, they were always seeing movement from the net person (a poach or a fake *and* movement from the deep person (a cross or S&V). No wonder the returners had so much trouble with all of that going on.

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Blade0324

Some interesting points made in this thread for sure. I have used signals pretty often with a couple of partners but numerous others that don't want to hassle with it and just want to do what they want. I find this difficult because they will often cut in front of me as I'm following a serve in to the net and then I'm forced to change directions to cover the other side of the court when I was not expecting to etc.

I much prefer signaling but only signaling poach, stay or fake. Keep it simple. Also I don't want a partner to suggest where I should serve. My serve strategy is largely based on how the opponent is playing, what their weakness is and what serve has been most effective. Also I go by feel much of the time. I've had partners that often will want to tell me to serve up the middle if they are poaching etc.
Seems to me that the best strategy is for the server to tell their partner before preparing to serve where they are serving for 1st and 1nd serves and possibly even what kind of serve they are going to hit (flat, slice, kicker etc). Then the net person can signal what they feel they are going to do based on the return that is anticipated. I would never suggest that the net person dictate to the server where to serve.

...in your last comment, you've gotten into a point I made elsewhere, which is that most of the top teams don't use signals, instead, they go back to the baseline and talk about what each thinks might be a good idea for the next point, then agree on a strategy, then go implement it. Re your example above, I agree that just totally winging it is usually not a great idea...although there is always a good case for "opportunistic" poaching, see Cindy's posting on this.

Just signalling has, obviously, its downside. In the deuce court, I signal that I'm going to poach..and I hope you know that the returner in question has a weak backhand return against a kick down the middle, so I'm hoping this is what you'll feed to the returner...and maybe it'll go that way, and maybe it won't.

On the other hand, if you have a discussion with your partner before the point, you can kind of clear up any misunderstandings before heading into the Danger Zone, as in the following sample (fictional, of course...) dialog:

Net Person: "Okay, I want you to thump a heavy kicker right on the service line, because I'm going to poach, take the resultant Wounded Duck, and give the opposing Net Person a new navel."

Server: "Are you on drugs? What match are you playing? I haven't gotten more than 30% of my first serves in, let alone 'right on the center service line,' for which I am Heartily Sorry, but do you seriously think I have any hope of burning a frozen rope down the center line on this serve? Here's my plan: I'm going to serve right down the middle of the box, maybe even underhanded, and you can do whatever you want...but my Strong Advice is to stand still and watch where the returner hammers the next shot!"

Okay...it's a little heavy-handed, I agree, but you get the joke. Cindy and I had a discussion about Reality Sandwiches that is maybe a good pre-match exercise for doubles partnerships, especially for first time partnerships. In that calm arena, you can share valuable insights such as "Ya know...our serves both stink like 3 day old dead fish, and our groundstrokes ain't nothing to write home about, either...but we're both Volleying Fools! Additionally, I happen to know that these jamokes we're about to play haven't even seen a volley since the 1990 Wimbledon Men's Finals on TV, and never in real life...what say we spend lots of time at the net, poaching whenever it feels good, and see how that goes...wuddia say?"

[Ripper014]

I just find when I am playing with partners that do not signal (which is all the time now), is that every return is mine. I serve and volley on every ball in doubles, I just take the best line to the net I can and try and cover every ball until my partner actually hits it. If the ball goes down the line because my partner poached and it is beyond my reach, you just have to give kudo's to the returner.

Afterall... even if the serving team does everything correctly... it is possible the returning team can win the point.