over should toss for kick serve = shoulder risk--is this a solution?

[Sam F]

I've seen the Vic Braden video on Federer's topspin serve here:

http://www.tennisone.com/club/lesson...serv/serve.php

In it he explains that an orthopedic surgeon has confirmed that a toss behind the shoulder is good at producing a lot of spin/kick, but that it was impinges the rotor cuff and can can lead to injury. For this reason Vic Braden whon't teach this toss w/o a player signing a form saying he/she has been made aware of the risk.

So, could it be a solution to still hit topspin but keep the toss more like a 1st serve, i.e. out in front and not off to the left (for a righty)? People have always raved about how Sampras's serve was so unreadable b/c the toss was always the same. We also know Sampras had one of the best 2nd serves of all time. Vic Braden talks in the video only of the dangers of the toss, not the motion of hitting a topspin serve, so it stands to reason that going with a different toss would alleviate the risk.

I've already had surgery to repair a torn labrum and now my rotators are acting up, so I'm looking to be as safe as I can be. Any thoughts or advice?

[larry10s]

one obvious answer is dont hit kick serves. stick to flat and slice and maybe topspin/slice.

[larry10s]

my understanding is that the contact point behind you is what puts the arm into an impingement position. i could be wrong and this is not medical advice or encouragement

[Sam F]

Thanks, larry10s. I've always found that when people say kick or topspin serve that they are basically talking about the same thing. Some may argue that kick means it has more sidespin as well, kinda like what some people call American twist. But, tennis terms get blurry quickly. So I guess I'd be looking to hit more of a topspin serve w/o as much sidespin when using the toss I suggested (same toss as 1st serve).

Thanks for your input on the contact point. It does stand to reason that the impingement comes from the toss being over the shoulder. Would still love to have Vic Braden and his surgeon confirm this though!

Safest option may indeed me to go with a slice. The only problem is you wouldn't have the same net clearance and consistency as with a topspin serve. Perhaps this will have to be a concession to old age.

[SystemicAnomaly]

It is my belief that any type of repetitive overhand serving or throwing will eventually lead to shoulder problems (even with proper mechanics) -- it just may take a couple of decades or more to manifest. My own rotator cuff problems are due to volleyball spiking.

With that said, even tho' I have significant limitations with external rotation of the shoulder and some shoulder flexion weakness, hitting a ball toss on the other ("wrong") side of my head to perform a twist kick serve does not cause me any pain or discomfort at all.

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[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by Sam F

Thanks, larry10s. I've always found that when people say kick or topspin serve that they are basically talking about the same thing. Some may argue that kick means it has more sidespin as well, kinda like what some people call American twist. But, tennis terms get blurry quickly...

As we've discussed in previous threads, the term, kick serve, is ambiguous. Generally speaking, any serve that has a heavy topspin component, causing it to kick up (forward, left or right), is said to be a kick serve. There are 2 or 3 general classifications of kick serve.

The 2 classes that I see most often are the topspin kick and the twist kick serves. The topspin kick serve is often/usually contacted (nearly) directly overhead while the twist kick is contacted on the "wrong" side of the head. Most kick serves will also have a side spin component and a spiral spin component. Both of these components are fairly mild for a topspin kick serve.

Any serve the curves significantly left or right in the air, will have a strog side spin component. However, if the ball kicks left or right on the bounce, it has a fairly strong spiral spin component (note: side spin does not cause the bounce deviation).

[larry10s]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

It is my belief that any type of repetitive overhand serving or throwing will eventually lead to shoulder problems (even with proper mechanics) -- it just may take a couple of decades or more to manifest.

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i agree with you SA about repetitive overhead motions(i think you meant to say overhead not overhand, correct me if im wrong) as a cause for rotator cuff and other shoulder problems. but the position to hit the kicker to the left and behind you must be particularly bad because i dont beleive braden made people sign waivers to teach them the flat or slice serve.

[larry10s]

if you hit the slice serve at 3 oclock and the flat at 12 a hit at 2 oclock gives alittle topspin to the slice to give you a "topspin/slice serve" all from the same contact point. you dont get as much topspin as you would with a left toss and behind contact and 6-12 or twisr if you were going 8-2 oclock contact but it does make the ball jump some and be alittle"squirrily" off the bounce

[Sam F]

Thanks for the help, y'all. I appreciate it. SA, you may indeed be right about any overhead motion causing problem, but I REALLY hope not!

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by larry10s

i agree with you SA about repetitive overhead motions (i think you meant to say overhead not overhand, correct me if im wrong) as a cause for rotator cuff and other shoulder problems...

Actually, the terms, overhead and overhand (as opposed to underhand), can be used interchangeably. It is very common in badminton to make a distinction between underhand strokes & overhand strokes. The latter type of strokes is more prevalent in badminton than in tennis, since the net is 2 feet higher.

With my diminished capacity (and limited range) left shoulder (rotator cuff), I am well aware of shots that put undue stress on my shoulder -- I feel extreme pain for some shoulder actions. I feel no discomfort at all when attempting to hit a twist kick serve with the contact point on my other (right) side of my head. This is not to say that the the twist serve contact can not potentially put undue stress on the shoulder/rotator cuff.