The Edberg kicker

[35ft6]

Originally Posted by AndrewD

Mate, that's why they call it serve AND volley. You use your serve to set up the first volley.

Was making the distinction between him and the way many players approach charging the net today, which is only when they expect a very weak return or perhaps no return at all.

Edberg's serve wasn't really like Sampras's at all.

You missed my point. The same in that it seemed like all their serves were the same kind of serve, just the pace was different.

I called service line in enough of their Aus Open matches from 88 to 2001 to be able to make a very informed comparison and you're talking apples and oranges.

Maybe I needed to see Edberg in person. Just on TV, his serve didn't really look like a big kicker even though his backbend would suggest it might be.

The kick serve is a weapon on all surfaces, especially hard (that's why Rafter won the US Open and not Wimbledon). The kick forces a weaker and high return, especially if you can get it up to your opponent's backhand and/or moving away. It also gives you extra time to get in to the net in order to make best position for the first volley.

Yeah, we all know this. Just seemed at the moment I wrote that post that guys like Mac and Edberg didn't really use kickers that much. It was more mixing up the placement. But I could be wrong. The kickers I really appreciate are ones I've seen in person. Maybe the TV is misleading. I associate kickers with off speed, almost slow serves that land short and explode off the court. Edberg's serves always looked too fast. Oh well...

[LeeD]

Edberg did have a fast twist/kicker, when he wanted to hit 110. He could vary it down like a rheostat down to 65mph, used more arc, and really kick it up high.
And kick serves are most effective when HIT DEEP right at the service line. It kicks higher on deeper serves, having more arc and distance to cover, causing higher bounces. Short kicks are for ANGLES out wide and short center lines.
Yes, probably the best, most consistent second serve ever in tennis.

[SirSweetSpot]

It's amazing the incredible success he had when considering his opponent knew it was going to be a kicker and knew he was scampering to the net, yet still prove futile. I don't know the exact statistics, maybe someone knows where to look, but I'd bet money that Edberg is near the top of the all-time list on holding serve percentage, and I bet the number would be jaw-dropping.

[mental midget]

Originally Posted by SirSweetSpot

It's amazing the incredible success he had when considering his opponent knew it was going to be a kicker and knew he was scampering to the net, yet still prove futile. I don't know the exact statistics, maybe someone knows where to look, but I'd bet money that Edberg is near the top of the all-time list on holding serve percentage, and I bet the number would be jaw-dropping.

one of my favorite stats of all time: he lost wimbledon without ever losing his serve-- went down 64 67 67 67 to stich in the semis. hadn't been broken once all tournament.

[onehandbh]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

I never really thought of Edberg's serve as a true kicker. To me it was a slightly loopier version of a Sampras serve, which to me wasn't a true kicker either. They both hit a really solid, heavy, spinny ball but one that continuously moved forward with decent pace, not a true kicker in that it exploded up off the court on the bounce after almost a lazy arcing flight through the air. Like Sampras, also, his first and second serves often were indistinguishable in terms of speed.

Edberg's serve was different from Sampras, IMO. I saw it live
a couple times. His serve had more of an American twist kick.
So if you're a righty and it comes to your backhand, after
the bounce it breaks even more to your left and away from
your backhand. Sometimes it's hard to see the amount of
action on TV. I had some seats that were in the first
row right behind the baseline and you could definitely see
the action. Fed has a pretty good deuce side twist serve.
There's probably a good youtube of it from the returner's
perspective (to see the action) somewhere.

I rarely face anyone w/good twist kick serves these days,
so when I see one it messes up my returns -- especially
against lefties. You'll know when you're facing one b/c you
really have to adjust to take the action on the ball into
account. When you're returning on the backhand side, the
spin will make your returns go further left than usual.

[LeeD]

As a lefty, one of my most effective serves is the slow twist to righties forehands, which breaks away from them and around chin to eye heights. They just don't always move their feet out wide vs lefties, something they need to do against that serve. They all expect wide out away from their backhands.

[AndrewD]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

Was making the distinction between him and the way many players approach charging the net today, which is only when they expect a very weak return or perhaps no return at all.

And I was just saying that's why he was a real serve-volley player and Sampras wasn't - something most on the board don't seem to understand. Can't really talk about today's players because none of them have the vaguest idea how to serve and volley.

Originally Posted by 35ft6

You missed my point. The same in that it seemed like all their serves were the same kind of serve, just the pace was different.Maybe I needed to see Edberg in person. Just on TV, his serve didn't really look like a big kicker even though his backbend would suggest it might be.Yeah, we all know this. Just seemed at the moment I wrote that post that guys like Mac and Edberg didn't really use kickers that much. It was more mixing up the placement. But I could be wrong. The kickers I really appreciate are ones I've seen in person. Maybe the TV is misleading. I associate kickers with off speed, almost slow serves that land short and explode off the court. Edberg's serves always looked too fast. Oh well...

Of the players I've seen on-court while umpiring (starting from 88 to 2001/02), only Rafter used the kick serve as routinely for the first serve as Edberg did. Of course his serve had to have some pace to it, otherwise he'd never have been able to set up for a good first volley. You can't just put in a slow one that kicks a mile. That only works against hackers like us.

Edberg had the best transition into the volley after his kick serve, Rafter was second best. However, the best kick serve I've ever seen belong to Wayne Arthurs. He could kick it up to head height while still generating a huge amount of pace and he could do it with the regular kick serve or a twist serve. Actually, Roddick is very close but he doesn't have the leftie advantage.

As to Edberg being similar to Sampras, I'd say it's not entirely true. Pete, like all good servers, did put spin on his first serve for safey but the delivery was so much flatter than anything Edberg hit. Sampras's second serve had kick but,again, nowhere near the same amount as Edberg's (I could hear the spin Edberg put on the ball, not Sampras). The whole point being that Pete was trying to force an error via the serve whereas Stefan was trying to set up the easy volley. Again, that's why one was a true serve-volley player and the other wasn't.

[35ft6]

^ Cool. I'll just say this one last time, I'm probably being confusing, but what I mean is that Sampras' first serve and second serve were very similar from what I could tell. Often indistinguishable. You see video clips of Sampras' serve in isolation, out of context, and it's hard to tell if what you saw was a first or second serve. I think I read since he figured he could get his first serve in 75% of the time, he would often just hit a first serve for a second serve thinking the odds were in his favor. Some guys, like Stich, Kraijeck, Noah, almost everybody else, you can really tell they're hitting different serves. The motion and toss were subtly different, etc. Sampras, it seemed like he was hitting the same type of serve every time, the same toss, just hitting different spots. It's just the way it looked.

And I'm saying Edberg seemed the same way to me, but I could be completely wrong. I believe the other posters, so I was obviously wrong about Edberg's serve not having super action. Just looks like he basically hit the same serve with the same toss all the time, not truly missing it up between kicker, flat, and slice. Although he could hit the spots you would normally use a slice serve for. I never saw him hit a flat serve. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, Arthurs had a nasty serve. Even on TV, you could tell it was a monster.

[onehandbh]

Originally Posted by 35ft6

^ Cool. I'll just say this one last time, I'm probably being confusing, but what I mean is that Sampras' first serve and second serve were very similar from what I could tell. Often indistinguishable. You see video clips of Sampras' serve in isolation, out of context, and it's hard to tell if what you saw was a first or second serve. I think I read since he figured he could get his first serve in 75% of the time, he would often just hit a first serve for a second serve thinking the odds were in his favor. Some guys, like Stich, Kraijeck, Noah, almost everybody else, you can really tell they're hitting different serves. The motion and toss were subtly different, etc. Sampras, it seemed like he was hitting the same type of serve every time, the same toss, just hitting different spots. It's just the way it looked.

And I'm saying Edberg seemed the same way to me, but I could be completely wrong. I believe the other posters, so I was obviously wrong about Edberg's serve not having super action. Just looks like he basically hit the same serve with the same toss all the time, not truly missing it up between kicker, flat, and slice. Although he could hit the spots you would normally use a slice serve for. I never saw him hit a flat serve. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, Arthurs had a nasty serve. Even on TV, you could tell it was a monster.

I think he did use a slice to hit the wide deuce side serve.
You're right about the flatter serves though. He didn't
use them as much. Both tosses were pretty far into the
court.

AndrewD, did you ever get a chance to see Stich serve?
I always wondered how he could hit it so hard w/such little
effort. Did his 2nd serve have much spin? Or was his height
one of the main factors to his serve? How would you compare
it to the other top servers of his era?

[LeeD]

6'4" players with long arms tend to hit effortless fast and spinny serves. Stich really slowed down his motion, then accelerated thru the service stroke, rather than start fast and end fast, like Tanner and Kriek.
Some players like to slow down to hit their fastest.
Other's like to rush thru the serves as if it didn't matter whatsoever.
Player's choice.

[mental midget]

Originally Posted by LeeD

6'4" players with long arms tend to hit effortless fast and spinny serves. Stich really slowed down his motion, then accelerated thru the service stroke, rather than start fast and end fast, like Tanner and Kriek.
Some players like to slow down to hit their fastest.
Other's like to rush thru the serves as if it didn't matter whatsoever.
Player's choice.

love tanner and goran's serves. something about those deliveries that catch the ball rising into the highest point of the toss, it's just more violent, somehow. tanner's serve was an absolute HAMMER.

[LeeD]

But Tanner and Kriek, as was Goran, always injured! That short quick violent motion just promotes injuries.
I like to use both. When timing is right, go low toss. When off, go slower motion and higher toss. Low toss hits lower, so compensate.
For kicker/twists, I always use a lower toss. Don't care if the opponent knows what's coming, I have to hit my best shot and see where the results lay.

[morten]

Originally Posted by onehandbh

I think he did use a slice to hit the wide deuce side serve.
You're right about the flatter serves though. He didn't
use them as much. Both tosses were pretty far into the
court.

AndrewD, did you ever get a chance to see Stich serve?
I always wondered how he could hit it so hard w/such little
effort. Did his 2nd serve have much spin? Or was his height
one of the main factors to his serve? How would you compare
it to the other top servers of his era?

Stich had the most amazing timing i have ever seen, Federer included...

[bluetrain4]

Didn't Kevin Curren also have a serve he caught right at the top of it's trajectory? Slobodan Zivojinovic (sp?) as well?

[Leelord337]

here's an excellent vid w/edberg serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNP1IcV0Bs

after watching that video...i wonder if edberg was the greatest volleyer of all time (well rod laver and tony roche are up there too)

[morten]

Originally Posted by Leelord337

here's an excellent vid w/edberg serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNP1IcV0Bs

after watching that video...i wonder if edberg was the greatest volleyer of all time (well rod laver and tony roche are up there too)

i had been looking for that match, thanks. And that was the match Edberg described as one of his best, saying he felt he just could not miss, even if he tried to... Amazing, and a great inspiration for my own tennis growing up, my game is molded after his, a shame we are in the baseline/polystrings age....

[BTURNER]

Edberg flows like electric current in this match. So natural, so deadly. When he's like this, it's just wonderful to watch.

[LeeD]

Kevin Curren...
Yeah, a whippy, skinny, tall kid who bent over on prep and used a violent motion, hair aflying, really short almost on the way up toss for the serve. He tossed exactly the same every serve, and moved his body under it to hit twists, kicks, flats, slices, and combi's.
Never could figure out why he didn't make it in singles, but was a great doubles player in later years.

[SirSweetSpot]

Unlike the majority of pure s&v'ers, you could take away his volleys and he still had a very capable ground game. Arguably, the greatest ohbh in history IMO, although Gustavo Kuerten is DAMN close. Although he had that weird looking forehand, it was still VERY good and could control points from the baseline. OTOH, take like a Martina Navratilova, and strip her of her volleys, and I bet she's a 5.5 player. Nothing against the great Martina, I'd commit treason to volley like her, but...

Edberg (and Mac) are the embodiment of LEGS. Both had quadriceps of a speed skater in their day. Sometimes when I see Stefan execute a stop volley that looks like the ball landed in dry sand, I wonder how someone could be so good.

[BTURNER]

uh, Sir sweet, Martina did not get to the finals of 5 French opens and win two, and take countless sets from arguably the greatest baseliner in the women's game with her S/v alone.
she had to trade groundies long enough to get the short ball and approach on virtually all Evert's serves and rarely S/v on her own second serve.

Edberg got to one FO final.