Greatest Serves of All Time

[NonP]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

I guess that would make Gonzales ancient, and Tilden prehistoric.

Yes. Seriously, that was just hyperbole. No slight intended.

[OHBH]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Here's mine:

1. Sampras
2. Ivanisevic
3. Krajicek
4. P. Gonzales
5. Stich
6. Karlovic
7. Tanner
8. Tilden
9. Roddick
10. Becker
11. Edberg
12. Federer
13. McEnroe
14. Dibley

I think Roddick should be bumped to 7. Not sure who Dibley is? Otherwise this is definitely the winning list thus far in my mind.

[hoodjem]

Supposedly, Bill Tilden was clocked at hitting a serve 163 mph back in 1931, with a wooden racquet. But we know how inaccurate "radar-guns" were back then.

[NonP]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Supposedly, Bill Tilden was clocked at hitting a serve 163 mph back in 1931, with a wooden racquet. But we know how inaccurate "radar-guns" were back then.

Be careful, we don't want our favorite simpleton to come whining about us "historians." Or do we?

[OHBH]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Supposedly, Bill Tilden was clocked at hitting a serve 163 mph back in 1931, with a wooden racquet. But we know how inaccurate "radar-guns" were back then.

I could kinda believe it. looked at some photos and the dude is built for power serving

[rudester]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Here's mine:

1. Sampras
2. Ivanisevic
3. Krajicek
4. P. Gonzales
5. Stich
6. Karlovic
7. Roddick
8. Tanner
9. Tilden
10. Becker
11. Edberg
12. Federer
13. McEnroe
14. Dibley

Great List!

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by OHBH

I could kinda believe it. looked at some photos and the dude is built for power serving

Tilden did have a beautiful motion, but that particular measure, was, without going into detail, I assure you, not accurate! I am sure however, that Tilden was capable of crushing a serve by any standards.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Blade0324

I'm not going to say that he is the best server ever as that would simply not be true. However, IMO he should be mentioned as having one of the best serves out there even though the rest of his game was not as good as some others. Scott Warner held the record for fastest serve in competition at 147 until Roddick broke that. .

HUH? Can you tell us more about Scott Warner's record? Where? When? I have seen Warner previously with high 130mph readings attributed to him, but I wasn't aware of any 147mph reading. Please elaborate! I would genuinely like to know more!

However, any record or claim to the record he might have had should have been doused by Rusedski's 149mph serve.

[NonP]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

Tilden did have a beautiful motion, but that particular measure, was, without going into detail, I assure you, not accurate! I am sure however, that Tilden was capable of crushing a serve by any standards.

Data, I know you aren't that old yourself, but do you have any observations you could share about these old-timers and lesser-known servers? One reason why I opened this thread was to get some detailed input from the more experienced posters so I could perhaps rank some of these players properly, and so far I haven't gotten it.

[abmk]

If we're talking about the first serve only, karlovic hands down ! goran being second .....

Overall, sampras

[papatenis]

The serve is to complex to rank by itself alone. There are many factors that are taken into account when the pros serve, first or second. (court speed, wind, opponent, sunlight conditions, type of balls, etc.)

I think you have to ask "who's serve was the most effective"

[NonP]

Originally Posted by papatenis

The serve is to complex to rank by itself alone. There are many factors that are taken into account when the pros serve, first or second. (court speed, wind, opponent, sunlight conditions, type of balls, etc.)

The same holds true for pretty much all the shots, but the serve is the one shot over which players have almost complete control. I think that makes the serve a ripe subject for discussion, and I say this as someone who's generally wary of all these GOAT rankings.

I think you have to ask "who's serve was the most effective"

Not a big fan of this idea, I must say. Once you emphasize the "effective" factor people are undoubtedly going to bring up the percentages of service games held, which isn't what this thread is about. In this case I'm more interested in the serve as a stand-alone shot.

[World Beater]

Originally Posted by NonP

One thing I didn't stress in the OP was that I want to rank these serves as pure shots mostly free of outside factors. That is, Goran and Stich were headcases and as a result their whole game suffered on occasion, but not when they kept their head together. On the other hand Rusedski's 1st-serve percentage usually averaged around 50%, which tells me the problem was more than mental. I'll add this note to the OP.



.

I think it is tough to isolate shots like this. To me its easier and more objective to analyze the overall effectiveness of a shot (even if this takes into account mental and physical).

Becker's % is also generally lower than some of the other servers. Roddick can serve at an extremely high % for his pace (maybe his serving is "safer" because he doesnt go for the lines as much as say sampras or ivanisevic but his effectiveness in terms of % of pts won on the 1st serve is about the same if not better).

Stich had an effective serve but it wasn't an all powerful weapon and wasn't really a match winning weapon to me. For stich, it was always about the overall game that would win matches. Stich wasn't really a guy who could rely on his serve to win matches when the rest of his game was malfunctioning. Some of the other guys could basically just live off their serve even if the were off in the rest of their games. Becker could do this but he would need to serve better than 50%.

Rusedski could get by with his serve alone indoors but outdoors i would definitely not pick him.

[NonP]

Originally Posted by World Beater

I think it is tough to isolate shots like this. To me its easier and more objective to analyze the overall effectiveness of a shot (even if this takes into account mental and physical).

I know this isn't the most objective way, but then I think most of us agree that the vast majority of players would pick Goran's or Karlovic's serve over others, stats be damned. There's room for educated subjectivity in these kinds of rankings.

Becker's % is also generally lower than some of the other servers. Roddick can serve at an extremely high % for his pace (maybe his serving is "safer" because he doesnt go for the lines as much as say sampras or ivanisevic but his effectiveness in terms of % of pts won on the 1st serve is about the same if not better).

I'm well aware that Roddick generally serves at a higher percentage than almost everyone else on the list. You say this strength of his serve compensates for the safety factor, but one can turn this around and argue that it actually shows his serve as a stand-alone shot isn't as potent as the others that can draw more aces and service winners at lower percentages.

Stich had an effective serve but it wasn't an all powerful weapon and wasn't really a match winning weapon to me. For stich, it was always about the overall game that would win matches. Stich wasn't really a guy who could rely on his serve to win matches when the rest of his game was malfunctioning. Some of the other guys could basically just live off their serve even if the were off in the rest of their games. Becker could do this but he would need to serve better than 50%.

Well, Sampras would probably dispute you on Stich's serve not being a big weapon, but I take your and others' point about Roddick's high serve percentage. Will move him up a notch above Stich. And FYI Becker generally served well above 50%.

Rusedski could get by with his serve alone indoors but outdoors i would definitely not pick him.

Not sure why you mention Rusedski, 'cause I already have him at the bottom of the list. That said, his serve is a useful barometer in this case. As I said earlier his serve percentage regularly hovered around 50%. Stich's on the other hand fluctuated wildy, usually between 40% and 60+%. These stats suggest that the problem with Rusedski's subpar percentage was more than mental, while Stich's can be attributed to his mood swings.

[SirSweetSpot]

Can't BELIEVE noone is mentioning Stan Smith. Without his name and the likes of John Newcombe and Arthur Ashe, this list is irrelevant.

[AndyArodRoddick]

ohh, cmon you guys.. i know that speed isnt everything, but combo speed+persentage in andys case, it's a huge thing..

so putting andy into 9th place, thats just ridicolous..just look at 09wimby..he mainly served his way out in sooooo many cases..espspecially in the 5th.. so yeah, 2 croats, sampras are better, i agree..but theres no way that stich and krajicek are better..

[Blade0324]

So getting a bit more info on Warners serve of 147, it is an official record but was not hit during a match but in a fast serve competition. I think that this waters it down a bit but doesn't change the fact that he is one of the biggest servers that has played. I can tell you from first hand experience that at 44 he is still able to hit mid to high 130's pretty regular as I've been on the receiving end of them and held the gun in my hand to clock them as well.

Like I mentioned originally he is not well known and didn't have a tremendous amount of success on the tour but to us average peeps the pace, spin, height of bounce, and placement are simply unbelievable.

[NonP]

I've done some thinking, and now I think you guys are right to give Sampras extra credit for his matchless 2nd serve and great clutch. Pistol Pete ahead of Krajicek then. I've also added McEnroe and Edberg to the list.

Also I'd like to see some reasoning behind your rankings especially of the old-timers. Much as I appreciate your input I can't take anyone's word on faith. So instead of just stating the obvious like "Tanner could crank it up" or "Newcombe had a great 2nd serve," say something more detailed like "Tanner's great disguise and swift delivery put him ahead of (fill in the blank)." Hope you get the drift.

Originally Posted by SirSweetSpot

Can't BELIEVE noone is mentioning Stan Smith. Without his name and the likes of John Newcombe and Arthur Ashe, this list is irrelevant.

I know there are quite a few worthy names missing, including Kramer, Smith and Ashe. That's why I'm asking the more experienced posters to weigh in.

Originally Posted by AndyArodRoddick

ohh, cmon you guys.. i know that speed isnt everything, but combo speed+persentage in andys case, it's a huge thing..

so putting andy into 9th place, thats just ridicolous..just look at 09wimby..he mainly served his way out in sooooo many cases..espspecially in the 5th.. so yeah, 2 croats, sampras are better, i agree..but theres no way that stich and krajicek are better..

In case you haven't noticed I've already put Roddick above Stich. But above Krajicek? No. You must understand that Krajicek at his peak probably served at comparable speeds to Roddick's or Karlovic's. This is because the radar guns back in the '90s (and the '80s) used to measure the speed of the ball near the net, but now they measure it as the ball leaves the racquet. So you can safely add 10-20 mph to the serve speeds registered in Krajicek's time, though it’s possible that a small number of those readings were "true." The difficulty is that radar gun systems have never been standardized, even to this day. I've already written about all this and more. Here are the links if you're interested:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...85#post4200485
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...86#post4201586

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by NonP

Data, I know you aren't that old yourself, but do you have any observations you could share about these old-timers and lesser-known servers? One reason why I opened this thread was to get some detailed input from the more experienced posters so I could perhaps rank some of these players properly, and so far I haven't gotten it.

Well nonp, not sure what to tell you. Tilden had a minimalist motion with a low toss, it was absolutely fluid however, and relaxed. One nice thing about it was that even though so simple, the linkage of his body-parts was perfect...and that is the key to power. Not wild knee bends, or back arches, or huge grunts. Tilden of course, had to leave one foot down, but he did get all his weight behind the serve, and even the best of jumps probably only add about 10mph max. (and I tend to think that generous) to the serve. (and in the case of many amateurs, probably causes a bit of loss from other links, that might even result in a wash!)

Ellsworth Vines, the next big server after Tilden, thought Sampras (89,90ish Sampras....note this his motion did change a bit around 1991 and again, around 1994/5) motion was just like his. He thought the arm motion, body movement etc were the same! From the footage I've seen, it's not, but Tilden sees something, probaby in the looseness of the arms, and the rhythm, as well as their general build!

In any case, I"ve studied all these servers to the best of my ability, but not sure that there is any way to place/rank them with any certainty.

I would say, that their biomechanics, as well as the speed ratings we do have, and the fact that a good wood server can come within a few mph's of what he can do with graphite convinces me that, while they may not have had such an aggressive (ace on every first serve) mindset, they could bring the heat, in a way very comparable to today's players, when they wished. Don't let the hype about improvements in mechanics fool you. It's largely unscientific gibberish. The really important fundamentals haven't changed...they're a function of the human body....and the greatest servers always had them. In fact, if anything, I think efficiency has gone downwards, as we went towards more of a big knee bend, pause, big leap phase, rather the continuous, relaxed motion. The former is more efficient in terms of energy used, though ultimately the outcome is probably almost identical when maximized! Some players, like Vijay Amitraj, thought that players of his era, who tended towards low ball tosses with quicker motions were more deceptive (he compared it to Krajicek in one interview), and of course, Goran, arthurs, Tanner, Curren, and many others have been among the most difficult to read. I recall even Agassi saying Leconte's low ball toss, quick motion was hard to read. But again, I think ultimately a great outcome can be achieved with any of these styles....as the varied greats demonstrate!

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Blade0324

So getting a bit more info on Warners serve of 147, it is an official record but was not hit during a match but in a fast serve competition. I think that this waters it down a bit but doesn't change the fact that he is one of the biggest servers that has played. I can tell you from first hand experience that at 44 he is still able to hit mid to high 130's pretty regular as I've been on the receiving end of them and held the gun in my hand to clock them as well.

Like I mentioned originally he is not well known and didn't have a tremendous amount of success on the tour but to us average peeps the pace, spin, height of bounce, and placement are simply unbelievable.

Hello, Blade. Thanks for replying, I'm not sure what you mean by "official"...there really isn't any official record...even thought that term is bandied about....even Roddick who may be declared the official record holder by the ATP, really should not be!

In any case, as I mentioned, Rusedski hit 149mph in tournament play, before Roddick, and in fact, Colin Dibley hit 148mph in 1974 in a serve competition. So I don't think Warner could be said to hold the record. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that his serve was extremely fast, and I don't doubt that he may have hit 147mph. I am certainly familiar with his name, and knew that he had been attributed as at least reaching into the 130's. I have seen a bit of footage of his serve, but not much. If you know a way, I can see more, let me know! Yes, he falls into an area of many a journeyman with all-time fast serves.....like Dibley, Denton, Sadri, and others....I am particularly interested in them, since they are the players I've seen the least of!

I take it that he lives near you. If you ever have the chance, please ask him for more details about his serve! Where was the competition? What measuring device was used? Where other pro servers there? Who were the other top servers? Feel free to email me if you find out any more info!

PS. If you have the chance, also ask him about David Pate! I know they played doubles, and Pate, who was coached a bit by Gonzalez, also had a very big serve, even though he was not a big guy!