Greatest Serves of All Time

[NonP]

Thanks for the informative response, Data. I was edging toward giving the pre-Gonzales greats honorary mentions, and now I believe that's the best way to give them their due without rampant speculation.

And I really don't disagree with you one bit here:

Originally Posted by Datacipher

I would say, that their biomechanics, as well as the speed ratings we do have, and the fact that a good wood server can come within a few mph's of what he can do with graphite convinces me that, while they may not have had such an aggressive (ace on every first serve) mindset, they could bring the heat, in a way very comparable to today's players, when they wished. Don't let the hype about improvements in mechanics fool you. It's largely unscientific gibberish. The really important fundamentals haven't changed...they're a function of the human body....and the greatest servers always had them. In fact, if anything, I think efficiency has gone downwards, as we went towards more of a big knee bend, pause, big leap phase, rather the continuous, relaxed motion. The former is more efficient in terms of energy used, though ultimately the outcome is probably almost identical when maximized! Some players, like Vijay Amitraj, thought that players of his era, who tended towards low ball tosses with quicker motions were more deceptive (he compared it to Krajicek in one interview), and of course, Goran, arthurs, Tanner, Curren, and many others have been among the most difficult to read. I recall even Agassi saying Leconte's low ball toss, quick motion was hard to read. But again, I think ultimately a great outcome can be achieved with any of these styles....as the varied greats demonstrate!

I tell ya, I can't help but chuckle when I see the ignorant (not just on this board, alas) go on and on about how the supposedly "advanced" training, technology and nutrition have made today's players superhuman athletes compared to yesterday's. It'd help a lot if some of the prominent journos and pundits started debunking or at least challenging this myth, but unfortunately they're often the very ones riding the bandwagon. Not an encouraging situation, I must say.

Also speaking of Leconte, I can't believe I almost forgot about his fellow countryman Noah. Pretty surprising that no one has mentioned him yet. I'll definitely include his name in my next post.

[35ft6]

Sampras number one. Serve I would most like to have. Federer and Stich after that.

[NonP]

Note to those who may be interested: I've made a few changes to the OP, the most important of which is the honorary mentions given to Tilden, Vines and Kramer. Considering the lack of sufficient visual evidence and, as Datacipher pointed out above, the different rules they had to serve under (like keeping one foot on the ground), I believe this is the best way to give the old-timers their due without rampant and potentially unfair speculation.

So here's the list as it stands now:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Krajicek
5. Roddick
6. Stich
7. Becker
8. McEnroe
9. Rusedski
10. Edberg

Honorary mentions: Tilden, Vines, Kramer

And here are the other players that have been mentioned so far: Gonzales, Ashe, Newcombe, Colin Dibley, Smith, Tanner, Vijay Amritraj, Steve Denton, John Sadri, Curren, Noah, Leconte, Forget, Scott Warner, Rosset, Arthurs, Rafter, Philippoussis, Joachim Johansson, Isner.

Now I'm sure some of these names belong on the list--especially Gonzales, Newcombe and Tanner--but I want to reemphasize that we're trying to rank the best of the best. The "GOAT" label would be meaningless otherwise.

Scott Warner (hat tip to Blade0324) is a case in point. His highest career ranking is no. 180. And his number of career titles? Zero. Not a single title. Now, I know I've said that I want to evaluate the serve as a stand-alone shot, but at the same time I find it hard to believe that a player with an all-time great serve could end his career with such a whimper. (But don't get me wrong, I'm glad that his name was mentioned. One aspect of the GOAT debate that appeals to me is its educational value, and thanks to Blade0324 we've learned that this dude named Scott Warner could serve big.)

The fact is that each era has its share of journeymen with big serves. The '70s had Dibley, the (early) '80s Denton and Sadri, the '90s Goellner, the '00s Arthurs and Isner. And no doubt a few other names have been left out. Admittedly these players boast a more substantial resume than Warner, but is that enough to land them on the GOAT list? I'm inclined to say no, with a few possible exceptions. IMO the server should have won a major or reached the major finals (preferably outside of the AO before the early '80s) at least once, and also won a few smaller titles for good measure. By those standards Curren, Noah and Flipper could be considered solid candidates. As for the others, here are their career records for your perusal:

Dibley - career-high ranking of no. 35, 1 AO SF and 2 Wimbledon QFs, 4 career titles
Denton - no. 12, 2 AO finals and 1 4R each at Wimbledon and the USO, 0 titles
Sadri - no. 14, 1 AO F and 1 Wimbledon QF, 2 titles
Arthurs - no. 44, never advanced beyond 4R at the majors, 1 title
Johansson - no. 9, 1 USO SF and 1 4R each at the AO and Wimbledon, 3 titles
Isner - no. 28, 1 USO 4R, 1 title

Perhaps you might feel differently, but these stats don't impress me. I'd say Amritraj, Forget and Rosset are better candidates, if just slightly. (And just for the record, I don't think Leconte or Goellner belongs up there. Neither does Rafter. In fact I decided to add Edberg to the list only because he might well have had the greatest kick serve ever.)

That should do it for now. Hopefully some of you will have something to share about any of the above names. And again when you rank these players I'd like to see some reasoning behind your rankings especially of the old-timers before Curren. So instead of just stating the obvious like "Tanner could crank it up" or "Newcombe had a great 2nd serve," say something meatier like "Tanner's great disguise and swift delivery put him ahead of (fill in the blank)." Thanks in advance.

[pc1]

Originally Posted by NonP

Note to those who may be interested: I've made a few changes to the OP, the most important of which is the honorary mentions given to Tilden, Vines and Kramer. Considering the lack of sufficient visual evidence and, as Datacipher pointed out above, the different rules they had to serve under (like keeping one foot on the ground), I believe this is the best way to give the old-timers their due without rampant and potentially unfair speculation.

So here's the list as it stands now:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Krajicek
5. Roddick
6. Stich
7. Becker
8. McEnroe
9. Rusedski
10. Edberg

Honorary mentions: Tilden, Vines, Kramer

And here are the other players that have been mentioned so far: Gonzales, Ashe, Newcombe, Colin Dibley, Smith, Tanner, Vijay Amritraj, Steve Denton, John Sadri, Curren, Noah, Leconte, Forget, Scott Warner, Rosset, Arthurs, Rafter, Philippoussis, Joachim Johansson, Isner.

Now I'm sure some of these names belong on the list--especially Gonzales, Newcombe and Tanner--but I want to reemphasize that we're trying to rank the best of the best. The "GOAT" label would be meaningless otherwise.

Scott Warner (hat tip to Blade0324) is a case in point. His highest career ranking is no. 180. And his number of career titles? Zero. Not a single title. Now, I know I've said that I want to evaluate the serve as a stand-alone shot, but at the same time I find it hard to believe that a player with an all-time great serve could end his career with such a whimper. (But don't get me wrong, I'm glad that his name was mentioned. One aspect of the GOAT debate that appeals to me is its educational value, and thanks to Blade0324 we've learned that this dude named Scott Warner could serve big.)

The fact is that each era has its share of journeymen with big serves. The '70s had Dibley, the (early) '80s Denton and Sadri, the '90s Goellner, the '00s Arthurs and Isner. And no doubt a few other names have been left out. Admittedly these players boast a more substantial resume than Warner, but is that enough to land them on the GOAT list? I'm inclined to say no, with a few possible exceptions. IMO the server should have won a major or reached the major finals (preferably outside of the AO before the early '80s) at least once, and also won a few smaller titles for good measure. By those standards Curren, Noah and Flipper could be considered solid candidates. As for the others, here are their career records for your perusal:

Dibley - career-high ranking of no. 35, 1 AO SF and 2 Wimbledon QFs, 4 career titles
Denton - no. 12, 2 AO finals and 1 4R each at Wimbledon and the USO, 0 titles
Sadri - no. 14, 1 AO F and 1 Wimbledon QF, 2 titles
Arthurs - no. 44, never advanced beyond 4R at the majors, 1 title
Johansson - no. 9, 1 USO SF and 1 4R each at the AO and Wimbledon, 3 titles
Isner - no. 28, 1 USO 4R, 1 title

Perhaps you might feel differently, but these stats don't impress me. I'd say Amritraj, Forget and Rosset are better candidates, if just slightly. (And just for the record, I don't think Leconte or Goellner belongs up there. Neither does Rafter. In fact I decided to add Edberg to the list only because he might well have had the greatest kick serve ever.)

That should do it for now. Hopefully some of you will have something to share about any of the above names. And again when you rank these players I'd like to see some reasoning behind your rankings especially of the old-timers before Curren. So instead of just stating the obvious like "Tanner could crank it up" or "Newcombe had a great 2nd serve," say something meatier like "Tanner's great disguise and swift delivery put him ahead of (fill in the blank)." Thanks in advance.

If you're going to give honorary mentions to the older players, then you should give a mention to Pancho Gonzalez, who has been called the greatest server in the history of tennis by many. Players like Ashe, Sedgman, Rosewall, Laver, Hoad, Kramer have raved about Gonzalez's great serve. It was a serve that took very little out of him with no hitches so he could serve bombs even in the fifth set.

Here's a link to Gonzalez's serve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhFo3hvGPI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0gJzm_EQY

Here's a little info on John Newcombe's serve from Arthur Ashe's book Portrait in Motion--But if you ask me who has the best serve in the world, I would say John Newcombe, and John really hasn't got a fast serve. He hits a heavy serve, which mixes spin with velocity. Neale Fraser had a great heavy serve when I first came up; Pasarell and Tony Roche are acouple of others who hit tough heavy balls. If you are returning a heavy serve, you need more than timing to get it back; you need strength too. A good heavy serve from somebody like Newcombe can turn the racket in your hand.

Here's a link for Newcombe-Connors. Newcombe was probably a little over the hill at this point and it was his last major.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REKwsCHZtUM

[urban]

Ashe himself was an ultra fast server, with a nice swift service motion. Later in his career, he went more for placement than for pure velocity. Neale Fraser's lefty serve was rated by people like Hoad, as even better than Gonzalez'. Fraser could hide the direction very well and could hit very sharp angled serves, that threw the returner off court.

[NonP]

Originally Posted by pc1

If you're going to give honorary mentions to the older players, then you should give a mention to Pancho Gonzalez, who has been called the greatest server in the history of tennis by many. Players like Ashe, Sedgman, Rosewall, Laver, Hoad, Kramer have raved about Gonzalez's great serve. It was a serve that took very little out of him with no hitches so he could serve bombs even in the fifth set.

Here's a link to Gonzalez's serve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyhFo3hvGPI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0gJzm_EQY

Here's a little info on John Newcombe's serve from Arthur Ashe's book Portrait in Motion--But if you ask me who has the best serve in the world, I would say John Newcombe, and John really hasn't got a fast serve. He hits a heavy serve, which mixes spin with velocity. Neale Fraser had a great heavy serve when I first came up; Pasarell and Tony Roche are acouple of others who hit tough heavy balls. If you are returning a heavy serve, you need more than timing to get it back; you need strength too. A good heavy serve from somebody like Newcombe can turn the racket in your hand.

Here's a link for Newcombe-Connors. Newcombe was probably a little over the hill at this point and it was his last major.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REKwsCHZtUM

I think we may be talking past each other. For the record I'm well aware of the reputation of Gonzales' serve. The only reason why I've been reluctant to give him an honorary mention is that, unlike with Tilden, Vines and Kramer, I've met a few people here and elsewhere who have seen Gonzales play. If possible I'm hoping to give at least Gonzales, Newcombe and Tanner reasonable rankings.

And speaking of Newcombe, care to estimate where he ranks on the list?

Originally Posted by urban

Ashe himself was an ultra fast server, with a nice swift service motion. Later in his career, he went more for placement than for pure velocity. Neale Fraser's lefty serve was rated by people like Hoad, as even better than Gonzalez'. Fraser could hide the direction very well and could hit very sharp angled serves, that threw the returner off court.

IIRC Laver himself has spoken highly of Fraser's serve, but not quite in such superlatives. Do you know anyone other than Hoad who held it in such high regard? I think Fraser may deserve an honorary mention himself.

Here's the '60 Wimbledon final between Fraser and Laver, which the taller lefty (Fraser) won:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0-6cRPqA8g

[pc1]

Originally Posted by NonP

I think we may be talking past each other. For the record I'm well aware of the reputation of Gonzales' serve. The only reason why I've been reluctant to give him an honorary mention is that, unlike with Tilden, Vines and Kramer, I've met a few people here and elsewhere who have seen Gonzales play. If possible I'm hoping to give at least Gonzales, Newcombe and Tanner reasonable rankings.

And speaking of Newcombe, care to estimate where he ranks on the list?



IIRC Laver himself has spoken highly of Fraser's serve, but not quite in such superlatives. Do you know anyone other than Hoad who held it in such high regard? I think Fraser may deserve an honorary mention himself.

Here's the '60 Wimbledon final between Fraser and Laver, which the taller lefty (Fraser) won:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0-6cRPqA8g

I'm not sure if you're trying to rank players all time or you're leaning toward players of recent years. Gonzalez has been mentioned by many greats as the all time best server and I'm not sure if in his time and even past his prime he wasn't considered the greatest server in the world. Vic Braden thought Gonzalez's service form was virtually perfect.

Newcombe is clearly one of the all time top servers. I was at a match in 1973 where he played Jimmy Connors, who in retrospect was already probably the best returner in the world. Now bearing in mind it was on a grass surface where it's harder to return, Connors didn't break Newcombe's serve once in three sets. If you combine that with his great kick second serve he clearly had one of the best service games in tennis history. Where he ranks I'm not sure but my gut is that he is in the top ten, maybe top five.
I have to think up names of all time server through tennis history to really know.

Fraser has been named by many to be a really great server but frankly I'm not sure how he ranks. He clearly was considered at worst one of the great servers.

I've also seen Tanner play and just from the impression of pure power and speed on a serve Tanner is up there with anyone I've seen. I am not sure exactly how he would rank all time because frankly my memory of his serving in person is no longer fresh in my mind. If memory serves (no pun intended) Tanner even set the speed record for official serving when he was on the Senior Tour in the early 1990's with I think 135 miles per hour, which was higher than the ATP speed record at the time by one mile per hour. He was timed at 153 miles per hour years earlier but I do have doubts about that since the equipment for timing the speed was more primitive in those days. He was fun to watch just for the serving alone and I remember at the US Open one year against Borg, Tanner knocked down the net with the power of his serve! Now perhaps the net was defective but I've never seen that before and I've never seen it since. My feeling with Tanner is that he doesn't really make the top ten because I don't think he had the variety of some players like a Newcombe or a Kramer or a Gonzalez.

When we look at serves obviously we don't just look at the speed of a flat serve but the variety of serves and the placement. One of the reasons Pete Sampras had such a great serve was not only the great speed but the variety of serves from the same toss. His second serve obviously had great penetration. I saw a tennis article comparing Pete Sampras' serve and Greg Rusedski's serve. I believe the article had Pete's serve and Greg's serve come off the racket at about the same same speed (Rusedski's may have been faster) but the revolutions per serve by Sampras was much faster so went the ball bounced Sampras' serve retained more speed and reached the receiver much quicker and therefore Pete's serve was more effective. I wonder if Sampras' serve in this way isn't similar to Newcombe's serve, ie I mean it was loaded with heavy spin and could knock the racket out of your hand.

Many old timers used to raved about a lefty server named John Doeg, who won the US Championship from what they say mainly on his almost unbreakable serve. I think Don Budge said the players called it John Doeg's egg ball because the ball resembled an egg when it came off his racket. Here's what Budge said about it in his ball "Don Budge-A Tennis Memoir"--The players referred to it as "John's egg-ball." Besides, when Doeg's serve in the ad court bounced, it would fly crazily off to the side, and no man could chase it down. If you did manage to get the ball back, just reaching the return carried you so far out of the court that there was no chance you could make it back in time to get Doeg's return. However, since John had little more proclivity for return serve than losing serve, all his matches were forever running to 18-16. You never broke Doeg's serve. You outlasted it.

[Datacipher]

NonP, I've often listed Noah as one of the most beautiful/graceful/efficient and powerful servers ever! I would rank his flat serve among the fastest (I was once told his flat serve was recorded in the early 90's/late 80's at 140mph but have not been able to verify that). His slice serve, was among the top 5 I've ever seen. He had a pure slice in both the deuce and add courts, with little topspin component. Which meant big speed, and big break. His ad court slice down the middle was the best I've ever seen.

The only knock I have on him, was that his flat serve was very flat, so he had HUGE power, but a slightly lower percentage, which wasn't helped by his tendency to hit down. I think b/c of this, he had to rely on more spin serves, even on the 1st serve to keep his percentages up. His kick serve was also not great, partly because he started tossing futher to the right, as his career went on. I actually think this was more efficient, and improved his slice, but he got a bit less kick. Thus, his second serve wasn't all that fast, and didn't have all that much kick!

Nevertheless, what an absolutely beautiful motion, and when on, extreme power.

[hoodjem]

Originally Posted by NonP

So here's the list as it stands now:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Krajicek
5. Roddick
6. Stich
7. Becker
8. McEnroe
9. Rusedski
10. Edberg

Honorary mentions: Tilden, Vines, Kramer

NonP,

I think you should expand your list to 1-20. This will give you more "room to maneuver" and include some servers that you and others mention. (Just a suggestion.)

[pc1]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

NonP, I've often listed Noah as one of the most beautiful/graceful/efficient and powerful servers ever! I would rank his flat serve among the fastest (I was once told his flat serve was recorded in the early 90's/late 80's at 140mph but have not been able to verify that). His slice serve, was among the top 5 I've ever seen. He had a pure slice in both the deuce and add courts, with little topspin component. Which meant big speed, and big break. His ad court slice down the middle was the best I've ever seen.

The only knock I have on him, was that his flat serve was very flat, so he had HUGE power, but a slightly lower percentage, which wasn't helped by his tendency to hit down. I think b/c of this, he had to rely on more spin serves, even on the 1st serve to keep his percentages up. His kick serve was also not great, partly because he started tossing futher to the right, as his career went on. I actually think this was more efficient, and improved his slice, but he got a bit less kick. Thus, his second serve wasn't all that fast, and didn't have all that much kick!

Nevertheless, what an absolutely beautiful motion, and when on, extreme power.

Noah was a beautiful server. I loved watching that guy for his athletic ability. His overhead was the best I've ever seen. He would routinely put the ball into the stands with his jumping overhead.

I saw Noah play Lendl in 1986 at the old Tournament of Champions on har tru. We all know what a great clay player Lendl was and how the clay surface slows down the serve. Well Noah was serving so powerfully that he was almost back to the stands in futilely trying to return the Noah serve.

Noah had possibly the best first serve (when he got it in) in the game at that time and there were great servers around like Boris Becker. His serve that day was incredible. He defeated Lendl in straight sets and won the tournament the next day against an over the hill Guillermo Vilas.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by pc1

I saw Noah play Lendl in 1986 at the old Tournament of Champions on har tru. We all know what a great clay player Lendl was and how the clay surface slows down the serve. Well Noah was serving so powerfully that he was almost back to the stands in futilely trying to return the Noah serve.

Noah had possibly the best first serve (when he got it in) in the game at that time and there were great servers around like Boris Becker. His serve that day was incredible. He defeated Lendl in straight sets and won the tournament the next day against an over the hill Guillermo Vilas.

Ashe was doing commentary for that tournament; he put Noah's serve above Becker's and below McEnroe's.

[jean pierre]

Roscoe Tanner. Incredible serve.

[hoodjem]

Originally Posted by jean pierre

Roscoe Tanner. Incredible serve.

Agreed: no. 7.
1. Sampras
2. Ivanisevic
3. P. Gonzales
4. Roddick
5. Krajicek
6. Stich
7. Tanner
8. Newcombe
9. Tilden
10. Edberg
11. Federer
12. McEnroe
13. Becker
14. Dibley
15. Karlovic
16. Rusedski
17. Kramer
18. Fraser
19. Noah
20. Dent

[britbox]

Goran served way too many doubles to be ranked at #1 or #2. Sampras should be #1.

hoodjem - I'm a huge Edberg fan and whilst I thought his serve was underrated, it was never Top #10 of all time material.

[hoodjem]

You are correct as to his first serve, but IMO his second serve kicker was the best second serve OAT behind Sampras. (Some thought his second serve better than his first, me included.)

[pc1]

Since John Newcombe's serve was generally ranked the best of his time I would rank Newk's serve higher than Tanner or Dibley. Dibley's serve was fast but he double faulted a lot and few if any ranked it higher than Newcombe. I would tend to rank Newcombe's serve better than Tanner's or Dibley's. Tanner's was awesome and with the fact that he seemed to almost hit his serve when the ball toss was still going up made the reaction time to the receiver much shorter. I'm glad the Tennis Channel has some Tanner matches available just to check out the serve.

Sampras' serve is particularly impressive considering how often he led the ATP in percentage of holding serve. I believe he led the ATP in that most important category most of the time in the 1990's and even in his worst years was in the top ten. Now I know it has a lot to do with his overall skills but still his serve was great. I saw an interview with Segura in which he ranked Sampras' second serve a bit higher than Jack Kramer's and Kramer's second serve was considered the best of his time, perhaps of all time. So that's a great comment by an expert who knows about tennis.

The Tilden first serve was excellent but I heard his second serve wasn't that impressive.

One serve that is not mentioned but perhaps at worst deserves an honorable mention is Ivan Lendl's serve. He had a very powerful first serve and an excellent second serve. I heard an interview years ago in New York that Brad Gilbert did. They asked him who had the toughest serve for him. He answered Ivan Lendl. The reason was that besides the fact his serve was so powerful, that he had such a variety of serves and every one of them were very good.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by pc1

Noah was a beautiful server. I loved watching that guy for his athletic ability. His overhead was the best I've ever seen. He would routinely put the ball into the stands with his jumping overhead.

I saw Noah play Lendl in 1986 at the old Tournament of Champions on har tru. We all know what a great clay player Lendl was and how the clay surface slows down the serve. Well Noah was serving so powerfully that he was almost back to the stands in futilely trying to return the Noah serve.

Noah had possibly the best first serve (when he got it in) in the game at that time and there were great servers around like Boris Becker. His serve that day was incredible. He defeated Lendl in straight sets and won the tournament the next day against an over the hill Guillermo Vilas.

Yes. I was going to mention Noah in the "movement" thread but forgot. I have never seen anyone dive as gracefully as I have seen some Noah's dives. As if the 6'4 man was weightless....and indeed, his leaping overhead was magnficent. The best backpeddling overhead EVER (I would only rate Pete's foreward moving slamdunk as better).

Funny you mention Lendl...the first time I was really able to verify in my mind that Noah's flat serve was as fast as I perceived (this was of course pre-radar days) was watching an old match against Lendl. Noah seemed to have extra heat that day, and when he served his bombs, they were NOTABLY FASTER than Lendl's canonball....and that's saying something.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by pc1

I'm glad the Tennis Channel has some Tanner matches available just to check out the serve.

.

I can tell you this. TV cannot do Tanner's serve justice. It remains to this day, the most awe-inspiring athletic movement I've ever seen. No exaggeration.

If you made a robot who's only purpose was to hit a serve, it would look like Tanner.

The last thing you saw was him lining up towards the box. Then the blur of the figure eight of the racquet, blinding blur, while the toss seemed to come to the exact spot that his entire body was unwinding to at the perfect instaneous moment. On TV, it just looks a bit quirky and fast. In real life, it is perfect timing, perfect effiency....inhuman.

I don't necessarily think it was the most effective serve of all-time, but the motion was the most impressive of all-time!

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by pc1

One serve that is not mentioned but perhaps at worst deserves an honorable mention is Ivan Lendl's serve. He had a very powerful first serve and an excellent second serve. I heard an interview years ago in New York that Brad Gilbert did. They asked him who had the toughest serve for him. He answered Ivan Lendl. The reason was that besides the fact his serve was so powerful, that he had such a variety of serves and every one of them were very good.

Yes, Lendl's is underrated. His second serve was not fast (about 75 on old radar so let's say 90 today) BUT very heavy, and he could hit kick or slice or a combination with it. He'd even hit an occasional second serve ace, particularly with a surprise on-the-line slice out wide. Which is the other great thing about his serve, it wasn't beautiful, but it was methodical and well-balanced, very upright posture, and I think that helped him nail his spots well. (which is part of what makes Sampras great and Roddick a little less than what he should be). Lendl could nail those service corners. Now of course, all pros can do this, and do it quite well, nonetheless, Roddick might go for a 145mph serve, and he might put it right on the line as he hoped, or it might just swerve in a foot and half inside the box, then curve a bit more into the body, meaning the returner need not even take a step but simply stick his racquet out! Much better to his a 120-135mph serve(what Lendl would register today) that goes STRAIGHT down the tee.

My only knock on Lendl's serve is that, if not confident, it really decreased its potency. This often seemed to happen against Boris...

[NonP]

Great comments, folks. Keep 'em coming. Now my turn to respond.

pc1, I'd like to rank all the great servers if possible, but as I said above we have very little evidence of the old-timers before 1960, and what evidence we do have is mostly hearsay that's bound to be unreliable. Take Budge's description of Doeg's serve, which I appreciate your taking the time to dig up for us. Though I don't doubt that Doeg had one hell of a serve, it's also clear that Budge was exaggerating a bit, going so far as to say "no man could chase it down" and one "never broke Doeg's serve." So before I give Doeg an honorary mention I'll need to see a few other contemporaries praising his serve in such glowing terms. By contrast I put more stock in Hoad's rating Fraser's serve above Gonzales', given that the latter is one of the greatest ever, so I'm more inclined to think Fraser deserves an honorary mention.

I agree that Newcombe should rank pretty high. Heavy kick like you said, and also one of the best 2nd serves ever. I also did consider Lendl and see your point about his serve, but I'm still not convinced that it's one of the all-time great serves. Remember, we're trying to rank the best of the best. If we included every excellent serve this list would get very bloated indeed. I want the "greatest" in "GOAT" to mean something.

As for Tanner's serve lacking variety, maybe Datacipher could chime in on that. And good point regarding Dibley's serve rarely being rated above Newcombe's or Tanner's.

Originally Posted by Datacipher

NonP, I've often listed Noah as one of the most beautiful/graceful/efficient and powerful servers ever! I would rank his flat serve among the fastest (I was once told his flat serve was recorded in the early 90's/late 80's at 140mph but have not been able to verify that). His slice serve, was among the top 5 I've ever seen. He had a pure slice in both the deuce and add courts, with little topspin component. Which meant big speed, and big break. His ad court slice down the middle was the best I've ever seen.

The only knock I have on him, was that his flat serve was very flat, so he had HUGE power, but a slightly lower percentage, which wasn't helped by his tendency to hit down. I think b/c of this, he had to rely on more spin serves, even on the 1st serve to keep his percentages up. His kick serve was also not great, partly because he started tossing futher to the right, as his career went on. I actually think this was more efficient, and improved his slice, but he got a bit less kick. Thus, his second serve wasn't all that fast, and didn't have all that much kick!

Nevertheless, what an absolutely beautiful motion, and when on, extreme power.

Data, Ashe apparently put Noah's serve above Becker's and below McEnroe's. Do you agree with Ashe on that? I was gonna include Noah anyway, but I'm not sure he (and Mac) ranks above Becker. Also pc1 doesn't seem to think Tanner's serve had much variety, or at least not as much as Gonzales' and Newcombe's. Any input on that one?

Originally Posted by hoodjem

NonP,

I think you should expand your list to 1-20. This will give you more "room to maneuver" and include some servers that you and others mention. (Just a suggestion.)

hoodjem, it looks like you misunderstood my intention. I've been in fact trying to expand my list. Doesn't have to be a top 10, 20, or whatever. I'm just more certain about those 10 players on the current list than about the others.

Also I'm not sure Dent belongs on the list at all, even at the very bottom. As you may well know he's been dogged by injuries and thus forced to tweak his serve throughout his career. Are we even sure which serve of his we're talking about? That's why I didn't mention him in my OP, actually.

But valid point on Edberg's 2nd kicker.

Originally Posted by britbox

Goran served way too many doubles to be ranked at #1 or #2. Sampras should be #1.

britbox, I've already addressed this. To wit, we're trying to evaluate the serve as a stand-alone shot. Goran was a headcase and as a result his whole game suffered on occasion, but not when he kept his head together. As a pure shot, though, his serve was among the best ever, IMO the very best.

Also his tendency to serve double faults is a bit of a myth. That's only true of some of his most important matches, but usually his DF count was around or only a tad above the average. You can check the stats.