Greatest Serves of All Time

[pc1]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

I can tell you this. TV cannot do Tanner's serve justice. It remains to this day, the most awe-inspiring athletic movement I've ever seen. No exaggeration.

If you made a robot who's only purpose was to hit a serve, it would look like Tanner.

The last thing you saw was him lining up towards the box. Then the blur of the figure eight of the racquet, blinding blur, while the toss seemed to come to the exact spot that his entire body was unwinding to at the perfect instaneous moment. On TV, it just looks a bit quirky and fast. In real life, it is perfect timing, perfect effiency....inhuman.

I don't necessarily think it was the most effective serve of all-time, but the motion was the most impressive of all-time!

I've seen Sampras, Goran, Newcombe, Ashe, Lendl, Becker, McEnroe and I can truly say the most stunning serve I've ever seen was Roscoe Tanner's serve. I'm not saying Tanner's serve is the best but when I first saw it, WOWWWWWWWWWWW!

[krosero]

Originally Posted by pc1

One serve that is not mentioned but perhaps at worst deserves an honorable mention is Ivan Lendl's serve. He had a very powerful first serve and an excellent second serve. I heard an interview years ago in New York that Brad Gilbert did. They asked him who had the toughest serve for him. He answered Ivan Lendl. The reason was that besides the fact his serve was so powerful, that he had such a variety of serves and every one of them were very good.

The most impressive stat I ever saw for Lendl's serve was against McEnroe at RG in '88. In the fourth set, he made 20 of 21 first serves and lost only one point on serve.

He also served at 75% when he beat Tanner at Wimbledon ('83).

In both those matches he was hitting it with pace, not just spinning in it.

As long as you're talking about honorable mentions, how about Borg. I still don't know of anyone else who's won 19 straight points on serve in a fifth set -- and Borg did it twice, against McEnroe at the 1980 Wimbledon and then Tanner two months later at the USO.

That's a record -- if it's a record, though I don't know of any official source confirming such streaks -- that has stood for thirty years now. Should count for something.

PC1, I'd be interested if you ever come across information about the streak against Tanner. It was reported in the press but I don't know where to find a copy of the match, and I'd like to know how much of the streak was due to Borg's serve and how much to his overall endurance in a fifth set (I know against Mac it was a combination of both).

Anyway Borg put in some impressive service performances in his last two years of playing Slams. There were the Mac/Tanner sets; and 16 aces against Connors at the 81W; and 14 aces against Connors at the 81 USO, in only three sets.

Even Connors admitted after the last match that Borg served "extra special", and everyone was raving about his aces.

Plus, the CBS commentators said that one of his serves during the final was the fastest of the tournament -- somewhat surprising because Tanner was in the event (he lost in four sets to Borg).

I think Borg's serve was better than ever in his last years, and there's every reason to believe it would have gotten better if he'd continued.

[borg number one]

^^^Very True Krosero. Borg's serve often gets overlooked. It was very good indeed, especially the first serve. He had such a beautiful motion, in my opinion, which was so efficient.

As far as Tanner, I would say that his serve is definite top 10 material. It's pretty much the only reason he was as successful as he was. The rest of his game was just not that spectacular. It was a stand alone, spectacular shot. Datacipher and PC1 are correct above, in my opinion. His delivery was key. The EXTREMELY quick ball toss and lightning quick motion, which made his serve impossible to read during the delivery. Then, he would deliver absolute bombs with that PDP! Of course he also had a lefty's advantage as well.

See last the 3 games of Tanner-Borg in the '79 Wimbledon Final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLVnrUKL8yY

Tanner's Serve Analyzed By Vic Braden:
(mentions Roscoe's 130-140 mph serve)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42STJgl2K4E

Borg-Tanner at Wimbledon in the 1976 SF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT5mvbTaKeM

[pc1]

Originally Posted by krosero

The most impressive stat I ever saw for Lendl's serve was against McEnroe at RG in '88. In the fourth set, he made 20 of 21 first serves and lost only one point on serve.

He also served at 75% when he beat Tanner at Wimbledon ('83).

In both those matches he was hitting it with pace, not just spinning in it.

As long as you're talking about honorable mentions, how about Borg. I still don't know of anyone else who's won 19 straight points on serve in a fifth set -- and Borg did it twice, against McEnroe at the 1980 Wimbledon and then Tanner two months later at the USO.

That's a record -- if it's a record, though I don't know of any official source confirming such streaks -- that has stood for thirty years now. Should count for something.

PC1, I'd be interested if you ever come across information about the streak against Tanner. It was reported in the press but I don't know where to find a copy of the match, and I'd like to know how much of the streak was due to Borg's serve and how much to his overall endurance in a fifth set (I know against Mac it was a combination of both).

Anyway Borg put in some impressive service performances in his last two years of playing Slams. There were the Mac/Tanner sets; and 16 aces against Connors at the 81W; and 14 aces against Connors at the 81 USO, in only three sets.

Even Connors admitted after the last match that Borg served "extra special", and everyone was raving about his aces.

Plus, the CBS commentators said that one of his serves during the final was the fastest of the tournament -- somewhat surprising because Tanner was in the event (he lost in four sets to Borg).

I think Borg's serve was better than ever in his last years, and there's every reason to believe it would have gotten better if he'd continued.

Borg's serve was called by some people (not too many but some) the best in tennis in the late 1970's and early 1980's. I think it was a fantastic serve and what was amazing to me about the serve was how he seemed to get huge serves in when he needed it. I haven't seen the 1981 US Open semi against Connors in ages but didn't Borg serve himself out of break point numerous times in that match?

Even a player and expert as great as Fred Perry said that he never saw anyone able to get himself out of jams the way Borg was able to.

[Blade0324]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

Hello, Blade. Thanks for replying, I'm not sure what you mean by "official"...there really isn't any official record...even thought that term is bandied about....even Roddick who may be declared the official record holder by the ATP, really should not be!

In any case, as I mentioned, Rusedski hit 149mph in tournament play, before Roddick, and in fact, Colin Dibley hit 148mph in 1974 in a serve competition. So I don't think Warner could be said to hold the record. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that his serve was extremely fast, and I don't doubt that he may have hit 147mph. I am certainly familiar with his name, and knew that he had been attributed as at least reaching into the 130's. I have seen a bit of footage of his serve, but not much. If you know a way, I can see more, let me know! Yes, he falls into an area of many a journeyman with all-time fast serves.....like Dibley, Denton, Sadri, and others....I am particularly interested in them, since they are the players I've seen the least of!

I take it that he lives near you. If you ever have the chance, please ask him for more details about his serve! Where was the competition? What measuring device was used? Where other pro servers there? Who were the other top servers? Feel free to email me if you find out any more info!

PS. If you have the chance, also ask him about David Pate! I know they played doubles, and Pate, who was coached a bit by Gonzalez, also had a very big serve, even though he was not a big guy!

You know what, I love all of the questions that you are curious about. I am hitting with Scott tomorrow night so I'll pick his brain a bit more. I especially like the part about David Pate and his serve as I myself am not fortunate enough to be 6'6". I'll update any info he gives me. You are right about his being a journeyman of which there are MANY over the years. Certainly he is nothing special in pro terms. He is just in a pretty small group of people as far as the general tennis playing population goes. Most of us could only hope to have had the experiences that they have and to be able to play at that level.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by pc1

I haven't seen the 1981 US Open semi against Connors in ages but didn't Borg serve himself out of break point numerous times in that match?

He got his first serve into play on 7 of the 12 break points he faced, and saved all 7. That percentage was pretty good but not outstanding. In the 80W final he made his first serve on 12 of 13 break points. He saved three break points at 4-all in the second with strong first serves (any of those points would have let McEnroe serve for a two-set lead).

I forgot this stat: he won 89% of points played on his first serve at the 79W against Connors, the highest I've seen for the wood era.

Wasn't Pancho Gonzales said to always make his first serve down break point?

[pc1]

Originally Posted by krosero

Wasn't Pancho Gonzales said to always make his first serve down break point?

That's what they say but I haven't seen any stats on it. I would tend to believe that he put a very high percentage in since so many have said it.

[Q&M son]

Pancho Gonzalez and Pete Sampras

[hoodjem]

Originally Posted by pc1

Borg's serve was called by some people (not too many but some) the best in tennis in the late 1970's and early 1980's. I think it was a fantastic serve and what was amazing to me about the serve was how he seemed to get huge serves in when he needed it. I haven't seen the 1981 US Open semi against Connors in ages but didn't Borg serve himself out of break point numerous times in that match?

Didn't Borg work mightily on his serve c. 1980 to restructure it and make it more powerful?

I remember reading an interview with Borg back then, in which he said he changed the position of his left foot from being placed fairly parallel to the baseline to more pointing into the court. This helped him put more of his body into it (not just his upper body).

It also seems that c. 1981 Borg developed a much more powerful game all-round, (particularly evident at that AKAI tournament in Sydney in 1982).

[pc1]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Didn't Borg work mightily on his serve c. 1980 to restructure it and make it more powerful?

I remember reading an interview with Borg back then, in which he said he changed the position of his left foot from being placed fairly parallel to the baseline to more pointing into the court. This helped him put more of his body into it (not just his upper body).

It also seems that c. 1981 Borg developed a much more powerful game all-round, (particularly evident at that AKAI tournament in Sydney in 1982).

I know he restructured it in 1976 just before Wimbledon but I'm not sure of 1980. I know in the 1978 Wimbledon one of the commentators (a former player I believe) mentioned Borg had one of the most powerful serves.

We'll unfortunately never know about Borg and what would have happened if he continued to play in the 1980's.

[borg number one]

Hoodgem and PC1, I think Borgforever has pointed this out before. I tend to agree after watching that AKAI footage.

Newcombe clearly comments while watching him that "he's increased the power of his serve"...

Here's some of that footage for reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=918rp7Omjk0 (Remember he beat Lendl too Indoors, at this big money event). He's cranking some shots. Now, take out the Bancroft he was using here, and replace it with a current Wilson or perhaps Head or Babolat. What would you see then????


Supposedly, Borg worked to get stronger by 1982, in terms of upper body strength, which perhaps really helped his first serve even more by that event, though he was no longer on the Tour regularly. Although, I will say, he looks to have been serving pretty impressively even in the 1976 Wimbledon Final vs. Nastase.

I found a Youtube clip that TW Poster Borgforever has already kindly uploaded on YouTube after some reworking of the footage on his part. Borgforever, thank you sir, I hope you don't mind me posting this before you have a chance at a new thread that you mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU0SG-ZkUA4 (Part 4 only) Borg wins all 21 sets of the Tournament!

It's interesting to see how he developed physically by 1982, by comparing the two clips.

As an aside, see this clip of some "vintage" service motions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvOJDI0yCvo

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by Blade0324

You know what, I love all of the questions that you are curious about. I am hitting with Scott tomorrow night so I'll pick his brain a bit more. I especially like the part about David Pate and his serve as I myself am not fortunate enough to be 6'6". I'll update any info he gives me. You are right about his being a journeyman of which there are MANY over the years. Certainly he is nothing special in pro terms. He is just in a pretty small group of people as far as the general tennis playing population goes. Most of us could only hope to have had the experiences that they have and to be able to play at that level.

Yes, again, if you find anything out feel free to msg me. Pate was only about 5'11, and I am often fascinated by the big little man servers, as I am not tall, but worked hard to get my serve up to 130mph at one point! eg. Olivier Delaitre, Roscoe Tanner, Ronald Agenor, Bracialli, Benjamin Becker, Thomas Johannson, Chang, Andre Illie, Johan Kriek, Alberto Mancini....and many others over the years... even players like Berasetgui and Rios could fire huge serves on occasion.

It didn't come out quite right when I said that there have been "many" Scott Warner type players...I just meant that there is a population of journeymen players, who, because of their journeyman status have been forgotten, but who, in terms of serve power, were among the elite! In that sense, he is not only among the tiny number of players who ever make money professionally, but even among them, he is in an exclusive huge serving category. So there aren't "many" of those guys...but if you know serving and tennis...there have been a bunch of these...dark horse serving stars over the years.

[Datacipher]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Didn't Borg work mightily on his serve c. 1980 to restructure it and make it more powerful?

I remember reading an interview with Borg back then, in which he said he changed the position of his left foot from being placed fairly parallel to the baseline to more pointing into the court. This helped him put more of his body into it (not just his upper body).

It also seems that c. 1981 Borg developed a much more powerful game all-round, (particularly evident at that AKAI tournament in Sydney in 1982).

Indeed. Borg has said that he opened up his stance and that it improved his serve. Vic Braden also said that he moved his toss further to the right (though Vic always says this , to get more pace.

Let me also note that, I was once at a seniors exhibition, Borg and Vilas were playing. In Borg's last service game, he decided to loosen up and go out with a bang. He fired 2 aces in a row to win the game, and they were HUGE. One up the tee from the deuce and one out wide in the ad. I have a decent eye for serve speeds, having spent a lot of time with radar guns etc...I would have estimated them at about 125mph...

Once I recall a graphic being put up at Wimbledon....it said something about the max speed of the a current player (might have been Sampras), and then (and, I'm going by memory here, maybe one of you remembers...) I believe it gave rather low numbers to Borg and Laver. (low like 100ish mph!) I remember Mcenroe balking a bit, and saying something to the effect of "well Laver wasn't too tall, but I think Borg actually did a better than that....people forget how big he could serve..."

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Datacipher

Once I recall a graphic being put up at Wimbledon....it said something about the max speed of the a current player (might have been Sampras), and then (and, I'm going by memory here, maybe one of you remembers...) I believe it gave rather low numbers to Borg and Laver. (low like 100ish mph!) I remember Mcenroe balking a bit, and saying something to the effect of "well Laver wasn't too tall, but I think Borg actually did a better than that....people forget how big he could serve..."

Yes I remember that moment too. For some reason I have the number 109 in my head, something like "Borg served harder than 109, I'll tell you that much." I think this was several years ago (possibly 2001?)

[lawrence]

I'd consider Goran's and Dr. Ivo's the best. However if you factor in the fact that 2nd serve is more important than 1st, maybe Sampras is with them.

[NonP]

Howdy, folks. Hope y'all have been enjoying the AO so far.

I just wanted to do some thread maintenance and hopefully expand and revise the current list a bit. Here's where we stand right now:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Krajicek
5. Roddick
6. Stich
7. Becker
8. McEnroe
9. Rusedski
10. Edberg

Honorary mentions: Tilden, Vines, Kramer

So the roster remains the same as before. The million-$ question is which of the following names should be added to it.

These I believe should belong somewhere on the list or at least deserve an honorary mention:

Gonzales
Newcombe
Tanner

I'm also willing to add these names or think a good case can be made for their inclusion:

Curren
Noah
Forget
Rosset
Arthurs
Philippoussis
Joachim Johansson
Isner

And I'm leaving out these names unless one can play a convincing devil's advocate (remember, we're trying to rank the best of the best): Borg, Denton, Sadri, Lendl, Leconte, Warner, Goellner, Rafter, Dent, Federer.

Of the old-timers I think Fraser may deserve an honorable mention. Doeg and Roche, not so much. I’m still undecided on Ashe, Dibley, Smith and Vijay Amritraj.

Maybe this post above by krosero could move this debate forward a little:

Originally Posted by krosero

Ashe was doing commentary for that tournament; he put Noah's serve above Becker's and below McEnroe's.

Do you guys agree? Feel free to weigh in on this and more.

And for the record, I’ve seen that a lot of you have put Sampras at or near the top. Let me say I don’t actually disagree. Pete sure had a complete package, and if I had to pick one player to serve for that ultimate match I'd probably go with Sampras myself. I just think that, as a pure stand-alone shot, Goran’s and Ivo’s serve is better.

Now there are a few areas where Pete is superior, including his matchless 2nd serve and clutch (though I’d say the latter has more to do with his mental strength than his service mechanics per se). And there’s the phenomenal amount of spin (topspin in particular) he put on his serves, which not only made the ball at the time of the return higher and heavier but also sometimes made it all but impossible to return. If you carefully observe some of Sampras’ serves down the T on the ad side you can see the ball clearly moving away from the returner by as many as three feet after it hits the ground. Just imagine how demoralizing it must be, especially on a break point, for the returner to guess correctly where the serve is going but still be unable to make the slightest contact with the ball. That’s what Sampras’ opponents had to endure when he smacked cannonballs right on the center line onto the ad court. They knew it was coming but there was nothing they could do about it. Having said all that, I still think Goran’s and Ivo’s serve can bring more heat and do more damage as a stand-alone shot, and Sampras himself has admitted this (regarding Goran’s).

[abmk]

Originally Posted by NonP

And I'm leaving out these names unless one can play a convincing devil's advocate (remember, we're trying to rank the best of the best): Borg, Denton, Sadri, Lendl, Leconte, Warner, Goellner, Rafter, Dent, Federer.

Federer and borg should definitely be there . Reliable and very clutch . Two very important aspects of serving ... federer even more so since he gets more free points off his serve

Would chose these 2 over many ( if not most ) of these above servers in the list when in trouble .

goran,stich,krajicek etc aren't the most stable mental strength wise, becker's serve could be quite off at times ( though he was very clutch when it wasn't off ) ,rusedski's first serve % as has already been mentioned is an issue ....

Also include dent, brings in quite a bit of heat, his 1st serve is a monster

P.S. I think edberg is a bit high on the list !

[pc1]

Originally Posted by NonP

Howdy, folks. Hope y'all have been enjoying the AO so far.

I just wanted to do some thread maintenance and hopefully expand and revise the current list a bit. Here's where we stand right now:

1. Ivanisevic
2. Karlovic
3. Sampras
4. Krajicek
5. Roddick
6. Stich
7. Becker
8. McEnroe
9. Rusedski
10. Edberg

Honorary mentions: Tilden, Vines, Kramer

So the roster remains the same as before. The million-$ question is which of the following names should be added to it.

These I believe should belong somewhere on the list or at least deserve an honorary mention:

Gonzales
Newcombe
Tanner

I'm also willing to add these names or think a good case can be made for their inclusion:

Curren
Noah
Forget
Rosset
Arthurs
Philippoussis
Joachim Johansson
Isner

And I'm leaving out these names unless one can play a convincing devil's advocate (remember, we're trying to rank the best of the best): Borg, Denton, Sadri, Lendl, Leconte, Warner, Goellner, Rafter, Dent, Federer.

Of the old-timers I think Fraser may deserve an honorable mention. Doeg and Roche, not so much. I’m still undecided on Ashe, Dibley, Smith and Vijay Amritraj.

Maybe this post above by krosero could move this debate forward a little:



Do you guys agree? Feel free to weigh in on this and more.

And for the record, I’ve seen that a lot of you have put Sampras at or near the top. Let me say I don’t actually disagree. Pete sure had a complete package, and if I had to pick one player to serve for that ultimate match I'd probably go with Sampras myself. I just think that, as a pure stand-alone shot, Goran’s and Ivo’s serve is better.

Now there are a few areas where Pete is superior, including his matchless 2nd serve and clutch (though I’d say the latter has more to do with his mental strength than his service mechanics per se). And there’s the phenomenal amount of spin (topspin in particular) he put on his serves, which not only made the ball at the time of the return higher and heavier but also sometimes made it all but impossible to return. If you carefully observe some of Sampras’ serves down the T on the ad side you can see the ball clearly moving away from the returner by as many as three feet after it hits the ground. Just imagine how demoralizing it must be, especially on a break point, for the returner to guess correctly where the serve is going but still be unable to make the slightest contact with the ball. That’s what Sampras’ opponents had to endure when he smacked cannonballs right on the center line onto the ad court. They knew it was coming but there was nothing they could do about it. Having said all that, I still think Goran’s and Ivo’s serve can bring more heat and do more damage as a stand-alone shot, and Sampras himself has admitted this (regarding Goran’s).

Top notch post.

Just a few comments. Pancho Gonzalez deserves a bit more than an honorable mention since so many have considered his serve not just the best of his time but the greatest ever. He had a very smooth effortless motion that allowed him to serve as powerfully in the fifth set as he would in the first set.

John Newcombe's serve was clearly the best of his time and very comparable to Sampras' serve, both first and second although I would gave Sampras only a slight edge. Where he belongs, I don't know but it was a superb serve. Incidentally it was far superior to Edberg's serve. Newcombe's kick second serve was legendary and the power on his first serve was superior to Edberg's also.

If we use a common foe in Jimmy Connors as an example. Newcombe played Connors in the 1973 US Open quarters and did not lose his serve once. I'm not sure if Connors even had a break point and Newcombe served a ton of aces against a Connors who I believe was at his prime or near his prime. It was a typical serving exhibition by Newcombe. Connors had a lot of problems returning the great serve of Newcombe. Connors later was able to defeat Newcombe but Newcombe was no longer serious about his tennis anymore and was over the hill.

Now Edberg, while he had an excellent serve, really relied more on his super volley to win his service games. Edberg played Connors numerous times and according to the ITF website, they were tied at six matches apiece. That's besides the point. The reason I believe Connors was so successful against Edberg, despite the fact Connors was not in his prime anymore was that Connors was able to return Edberg's serve very well despite the fact Edberg was in his prime.

It's very clear to me that Newcombe had a much superior serve than Edberg.

Yes I know there are a lot of possible flaws to this logic but I have seen some of these matches and I believe these are the reasons behind it.

[west coast 2 hander]

Newcomb is not at the level as Tanner or Gonzales. Of the 'others' I would put Curren, Arthurs and Isner at the top. Also Denton and Sadri were better than the others mentioned.

Props to Pate and Kriek for best serves for under 5 11".

[jean pierre]

Don't forget Steve Denton !