Illinois Fighting Illini

[IlliniSky]

Time to rebuild. Starting to look ugly.

[Will Wilson]

Originally Posted by IlliniSky

Dancer stacks his players and still loses a home match against the 23rd ranked Gophers. PATHETIC! I've said it before but it's now official. He has destroyed all that was left over from the Tiley era. This guy has got to go.

A little credit to The Golden Gophers is in order. When healthy, they've only lost to top 10 teams (only one loss outside top ten).

Stacking doesn't work against The Golden Gophers as they can go 7 or 8 deep and still compete.

When I was at the U of M, we never lost to anybody other than Michigan. Everyone has their day and Minnesota is on the rise.

[IlliniSky]

Originally Posted by Will Wilson

A little credit to The Golden Gophers is in order. When healthy, they've only lost to top 10 teams (only one loss outside top ten).

Stacking doesn't work against The Golden Gophers as they can go 7 or 8 deep and still compete.

When I was at the U of M, we never lost to anybody other than Michigan. Everyone has their day and Minnesota is on the rise.

Yeah, I didn't mean to take anything away from the Gophers' win. They are definitely improved this year.

[IlliniSky]

In an interview, Dancer says;

"We don't stay calm. We don't execute. We lose control. We are very disappointed. We have got to rebound."

Isn't it the coaches job to calm the players down and stay in control?

"Clearly the coaches have to do better and reach each individual player a little bit more. Our guys have to play smarter and tougher and the coaches have to figure out what's not happening to make it work better than today's match."

Figure out what? The season is over. The team's streak of 20-win seasons is over, we're going to fall out of the top 20, we are not going to be hosting the regionals and we only have one more game in the regular season, and you think we need to figure out things now?

At this rate, Illinois will be hosting the 2013 NCAA championships and watching from the sidelines. Has this ever happened in the history of NCAA tennis? What an embarrassment.

[ClarkC]

Based on recent results, I don't see the stack. I think you are getting a bit irrational on the subject of Illinois tennis. I understand the disappointment, but your posts are just becoming one rant after another.

[IlliniSky]

Yeah, maybe you're right. I'll come back when I can rationalize what is going on with the team.

[vandre]

Originally Posted by Will Wilson

A little credit to The Golden Gophers is in order. When healthy, they've only lost to top 10 teams (only one loss outside top ten).

Stacking doesn't work against The Golden Gophers as they can go 7 or 8 deep and still compete.

When I was at the U of M, we never lost to anybody other than Michigan. Everyone has their day and Minnesota is on the rise.

not so loud, bro! clarkc thinks only the top 2 on any team can compete!!!

[bluetrain4]

Originally Posted by IlliniSky

Yeah, maybe you're right. I'm just sick of the way Dancer has destroyed this team. You may be one of those who think stacking is ok so you don't see it. I know stacking is not against the rules but I am one of those who thinks it ruins the game sometimes. The second ranked player is playing the sixth match. That's stacking. Maybe you think it's good manuvering. Fine. Whatever. I'm probably done getting too involved in Ilinois tennis until Dancer is gone or figures it out. Signing out.

Actually, I think stacking is quite clearly against the rules. But, I think what constitutes stacking isn't simply the number next to a name, i.e., just because one player's ITA rank is higher than another player's doesn't mean it's a "stack" to place the lower ranked player higher IF the lower ranked player can actually beat the higher ranked player or be very competitive with him.

So, let's say Nos. 3 and 4 get some decent individual tourney play during the fall season and earn an ITA rank. Then they play some dual matches against highly ranked teams who also have ranked 3 and 4 players and they perform well, thus solidifying their rank. But, then let's say, No. 4 starts to play bad, maybe loses a set in practice to No. 5 (or loses an actual match). If No. 5 can actually beat No. 4 (even if he doesn't always do it), I don't think it's stack to put that player higher.

Likewise, you see highly ranked teams with their top 3 players all ranked in the top 30 or 40 and they'll all switch around a lot because they are all competititive. Also, not stacking.

Stacking is when the clearly superior player is placed lower and the lower player is placed higher knowing that he has no chance at winning. Stacking involves purposely throwing away matches so that other matches can be won.

Anyone know the technical rules.

[Clemson_tennis]

For example: Ohio State putting Van Engelen at 3 when he routinely loses or struggles against lesser opponents, while 4-6 blaze through.

[Lefty Spin]

I think we all agree that stacking is against the rules. I don't think Illinois stacked in the Minnesota match. KU, Kalmanovich and Hamui have played higher than Souza the whole year. The only issue would be with Hoh playing 5. From what I have seen lately, I think Hoh was playing better. I admith this is debateable. I thnk Dancer has been looking for more out of the 5-6 spot the whole year. Souza, Hoh and Abdelnour have switched in and out of those spots. Typically, Souza and Hoh have played more than Abdelnour. While Souza probably has played more matches at a higher spot than Hoh, the question really goes to who is playing better. By the way, was anyone at the OSU-IU match? OSU won 5-2 but I think that is a good result for IU.

There is a rule for stacking, a couple of years ago, Northwestern forfeited a match against Wisconsin that they had won 4-3 because of stacking. As a result, Wisconsin won 4-3.

[bluetrain4]

Originally Posted by Lefty Spin

I think we all agree that stacking is against the rules. I don't think Illinois stacked in the Minnesota match. KU, Kalmanovich and Hamui have played higher than Souza the whole year. The only issue would be with Hoh playing 5. From what I have seen lately, I think Hoh was playing better. I admith this is debateable. I thnk Dancer has been looking for more out of the 5-6 spot the whole year. Souza, Hoh and Abdelnour have switched in and out of those spots. Typically, Souza and Hoh have played more than Abdelnour. While Souza probably has played more matches at a higher spot than Hoh, the question really goes to who is playing better. By the way, was anyone at the OSU-IU match? OSU won 5-2 but I think that is a good result for IU.

There is a rule for stacking, a couple of years ago, Northwestern forfeited a match against Wisconsin that they had won 4-3 because of stacking. As a result, Wisconsin won 4-3.

Didn't Wisconsin itself also get a match forfeited because of stacking in the past few years?

[jhick]

Out of curiousity, does anyone know how stacking rules are determined/enforced?

[Lefty Spin]

Originally Posted by bluetrain4

Didn't Wisconsin itself also get a match forfeited because of stacking in the past few years?

Bluetrain, I know it was the Wisconsin-Northwestern match. I may be wrong on which team was forfeited. In regards to the enforcement of the rule, the coach of the other team files a protest which is then ruled on for interpretation. Unfortunately, I don't know who rules on the protest. It sould be the ITA officials at the match or the conference. I think Woodrow is a college official. He can give us the answer.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by IlliniSky

Yeah, maybe you're right. I'm just sick of the way Dancer has destroyed this team. You may be one of those who think stacking is ok so you don't see it. I know stacking is not against the rules but I am one of those who thinks it ruins the game sometimes. The second ranked player is playing the sixth match. That's stacking. Maybe you think it's good manuvering. Fine. Whatever. I'm probably done getting too involved in Ilinois tennis until Dancer is gone or figures it out. Signing out.

1) I am not one of those who thinks stacking is OK.

2) Stacking is against the rules.

3) When I see allegations that a certain player should have played several spots higher in the lineup, but the scores indicate he struggled to win in three sets down where he played, then I don't see the stacking.

4) ITA rankings are heavily influenced by fall play. Some players miss the fall entirely, while others have one hot tournament in the fall that pumps up their ranking but then play at their normal level the rest of the season. You cannot insist that the lineup follow ITA rankings. KU Singh would have to play #6 for the whole spring just because he missed the fall season.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by vandre

not so loud, bro! clarkc thinks only the top 2 on any team can compete!!!

I think only the top 2 on any team can compete? Care to cite any posts of mine that say that?

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by Lefty Spin

I think we all agree that stacking is against the rules. I don't think Illinois stacked in the Minnesota match. KU, Kalmanovich and Hamui have played higher than Souza the whole year. The only issue would be with Hoh playing 5. From what I have seen lately, I think Hoh was playing better. I admit this is debateable.

The only thing that raised my eyebrows when I saw the box score was Hoh playing 5 and Souza playing 6. Notice that Hoh won the first set and Souza lost the first set. At that point, I wonder if anyone was still thinking that a stack was going on? Sure, Hoh then lost in 3 and Souza won in 3, but assuming that Minnesota's #5 is better than their #6 this does not indicate that Souza is definitely playing better than Hoh right now. Looks like they are about even.

If Souza had breezed through in straight sets while Hoh lost in straight sets, we would all be in agreement that the lineup looked fishy.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by jhick

Out of curiousity, does anyone know how stacking rules are determined/enforced?

It is subjective. Players are supposed to play in order of "ability" per ITA rules. There are specific clauses that you cannot claim that a player is returning from injury so he is playing several spots down, etc. When he is healthy, he goes back to his spot. Not healthy, don't play him yet. Players cannot change more than one spot in the lineup from one match to the next.

If an opposing coach protests before a match, both coaches present their arguments to an ITA official. The official then has to make a judgment call based on the evidence from this season, weighted towards more recent results. Because of the subjectivity, most ITA officials are not willing to force a lineup change unless a distance of more than one spot is obviously involved and the decision does not look that close. As a result, rather minor stacking flies under the radar. Egregious stacking (#4 player is playing #1 today because "he has been winning in practice") will be overturned.

Originally Posted by Lefty Spin

Bluetrain, I know it was the Wisconsin-Northwestern match. I may be wrong on which team was forfeited. In regards to the enforcement of the rule, the coach of the other team files a protest which is then ruled on for interpretation. Unfortunately, I don't know who rules on the protest. It sould be the ITA officials at the match or the conference. I think Woodrow is a college official. He can give us the answer.

Teams can move their lineup up or down one spot; however, the order still needs to be based on order of ability.

If one team is protesting the line-up, then the coach tells the head referee on-site that they are playing the match under protest. The referee/umpire has NOTHING to do with lineup enforcement except to read the rules in question. The officials on-site do not make any decisions regarding validity of the lineup. After the match, the protesting coach files a protest with the NCAA if a non-conference match, or with the Conference office if it is a conference match. It is handled from their.

[jhick]

I wish they would have enforced stacking rules when I was in high school. Two years in a row we got stacked on by the team that beat us and went to state. One year it was so bad that our 1st and 2nd singles players both won 6-0,6-0 and were competing to see who would win their match first.

[vandre]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

No team survives injuries to their top two players. .

right here buddy!