Single handed backhand for juniors...

[NoQuarter]

Originally Posted by dennis10is

Don't you know that the 1bh has been conclusive proven that it is inferior to the 2bh? That is a fact. I'm surprised that the USPTA and other coaching organization have not banned the teaching of such an inferior technique.

At the very least, if a parent wishes their child to be taught a 1bh, the pro should be protected by having the parent sign a release form.

Who/Where/When has the 1hbh been proven inferior? Who wants to tell Federer, Sampras, Laver, Emerson they won all those Grand Slams with an inferior shot?

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by BMC9670

I disagree with this. There are many pros who have been trained from the time they were 6, 7, and 8 with long term goals of becoming pros by some of the best coaches on the planet. Many of these use a 2HBH. We're they "lazy"? No, they were taught a very effective way to hit the ball in the modern game. Nadal, Djoker, Venus, Serena, the list goes on and on. I don't think they, nor the people who raised and trained them were considered "lazy".

I have news for you,,,,, coaches are some of the laziest individuals you could find on a tennis court. They feed balls, talk a lot of doo-doo and do very little "teaching". Aditionally, they need to ensure thier students keep coming back, and the only way for this to occur, is for the student to become "better" quickly. Hence, the instant gratification.

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

Then our experiences are different.

Yes. They are. In the "real world", where the vast majoty of tennis players are in the 3.0 range, they mostly try to hit forehands (their stronger side), and develop tennis elbow because of bad form.

[Kunohara]

^

Drakulie is correct.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by Kunohara

^

Drakulie is correct.

Sorry, in regards to the cause of tennis elbow he is not correct. I am not going to argue about simple facts. Call any sports doctor or coach and ask him. More cases come from 1hbs and stiff frames/strings than do from bad forehand technique.

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/USTA...is%20Elbow.pdf

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by BMC9670

I disagree with this. There are many pros who have been trained from the time they were 6, 7, and 8 with long term goals of becoming pros by some of the best coaches on the planet. Many of these use a 2HBH. We're they "lazy"? No, they were taught a very effective way to hit the ball in the modern game. Nadal, Djoker, Venus, Serena, the list goes on and on. I don't think they, nor the people who raised and trained them were considered "lazy".

100% correct. Teaching the proper serve for example is 100 times harder than teaching a 1hb. Many top D-1 players and pros have 2hbs, none have pancake serves. Any pro that takes the time to teach the serve correctly is certainly not looking for instant gratification and would teach the 1hb if they thought it was better for that student.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

100% correct. Teaching the proper serve for example is 100 times harder than teaching a 1hb. Many top D-1 players and pros have 2hbs, none have pancake serves. Any pro that takes the time to teach the serve correctly is certainly not looking for instant gratification and would teach the 1hb if they thought it was better for that student.

which explains why most beginners use a pancake serve, with the coach standing on their side telling them, "good" and tossing them another ball.

It isn't until they are very good, and really begin showing a lot of improvement that they are taught to hit a serve with a continental.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

Sorry, in regards to the cause of tennis elbow he is not correct.

No, sorry but you are wrong (again).

the vast majority of tennis players from the first moment they step on a court hit forehands and totally shy away from hitting a backhand (whether one or two-handed), and they develop tennis elbow from bad form on that side.

I'm quite certain you won't find one "doctor" who would agree that not hiting backhands will lead to tennis elbow.

[tennisdad65]

I think 2HBH is prevalent because it helps the kids to win more in the 8s, 10s, 12s, and even 14s.

My son just turned 9, and has been using a 1HBH since he was 5. I think people try to have the kids hit topspin 1HBH and give up. I started him off with the old fashioned underspin drive like Rosewall and many of the other players did in the 70s. I make him practice the topspin 1HBH often, but for matches he resorts to the Rosewall drive. It is natural for him since we volley a lot, and the Rosewall underspin drive is pretty much an extension of his volleys.

[BMC9670]

Originally Posted by drakulie

I have news for you,,,,, coaches are some of the laziest individuals you could find on a tennis court. They feed balls, talk a lot of doo-doo and do very little "teaching". Aditionally, they need to ensure thier students keep coming back, and the only way for this to occur, is for the student to become "better" quickly. Hence, the instant gratification.

You missed my point. I'm not talking about your everyday pros teaching future rec players. I'm talking high-level, well-known coaches developing future pros. They are not lazy and are building their charge's game for the top and many use a 2HBH. My point is that it is perfectly viable shot from the beginning, not just an easy way through a lesson or an afterthought.

[BMC9670]

Originally Posted by tennisdad65

I think 2HBH is prevalent because it helps the kids to win more in the 8s, 10s, 12s, and even 14s.

While this may be true, I think it's an over-simplification on why the 2HBH is so prevalent in today's game. If 75% of the top pro's were using the 1 hander and every kid/rec player was using the 2 hander, I might agree, but the high-level game is dominated by the 2 hander as well. There is a reason for that beyond winning at a young age.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by BMC9670

You missed my point. I'm not talking about your everyday pros teaching future rec players. I'm talking high-level, well-known coaches developing future pros. They are not lazy and are building their charge's game for the top and many use a 2HBH. My point is that it is perfectly viable shot from the beginning, not just an easy way through a lesson or an afterthought.

and again, if they are teaching "future pros", then the students they have already recieived have learned (from recreational coaches) the two-hander. Very, very few coaches which you are referring to have produced future pros from the very beginning. The students they get or "hand pick" are already developed to certain degrees and have talent.

Oh, and I didn't say it was not a viable shot.

[junbumkim]

Originally Posted by BMC9670

You missed my point. I'm not talking about your everyday pros teaching future rec players. I'm talking high-level, well-known coaches developing future pros. They are not lazy and are building their charge's game for the top and many use a 2HBH. My point is that it is perfectly viable shot from the beginning, not just an easy way through a lesson or an afterthought.

Don't you think there is a pressure on the coaches and players to show results throughout their junior career? If a junior player is struggling b/c of one hander and not winning matches, not many parents / players are going to persevere through it. Not many parents are going to have 100% faith in a coach who is unable to produce result and they think is destroying the kid's career. It has nothing to do with work ethic or dilligence.

[BMC9670]

Originally Posted by junbumkim

Don't you think there is a pressure on the coaches and players to show results throughout their junior career? If a junior player is struggling b/c of one hander and not winning matches, not many parents / players are going to persevere through it. Not many parents are going to have 100% faith in a coach who is unable to produce result and they think is destroying the kid's career. It has nothing to do with work ethic or dilligence.

Sure, I agree with that. All I'm saying is that the vibe on the 1H vs 2H discussions are usually 1H is superior and 2H is easier and that is why its prevalent in today's game. I think that's over-simplifying it. While I do think it's easier to learn and win early with a 2HBH, I think it's as good, or for many players better than a 1HBH, especially with the pace of the game today.

Take an example like Djokovic, who has been trained to be a pro since an early age. I would bet his parents and various coaches discussed which to play, but 2HBH was taught, and I'm convinced it was for more than the fact that it was easier or made him win early. That's all I'm pointing out.

[CoachingMastery]

Originally Posted by drakulie

whole-heartedly disagree. Most players I run into who have developed tennis elbow is due in part to poor mechanics on their forehand.

Drak, I've seen many "golfer's elbow" (aka server's elbow) developed from poor mechnics on the forehands side...never tennis elbow. It is almost biomechanically impossible since there is almost no stress to the lateral epicondyle of the elbow on the forehand. There IS stress to the medial epicondyle of the elbow on the forehand.

I suspect that you may see players who developed tennis elbow via backhand issues and simply are unaware of how they got it or that when it hurts it can hurt on all shots, forehands included, when the inflamation is bad.

[tennisdad65]

Two of the better players (5.0s) at the courts where I play have had TE for years. Both of them use a 2HBH, and the Band-IT arm band is part of their gear. So, factors other than the 1HBH also cause TE.

I guess the stiff racquets and poly strings are overtaking 1HBH as the primary cause of TE.

[CoachingMastery]

I don't really see why there is such subjective arguments here. (Especially trying to "Blame" lazy pros for teaching the shot that the VAST majority of top players now use!)

Yes, there are indeed lazy, ignorant, close-minded pros teaching tennis out there. But, to say it is the lazy pro that teaches two handed strokes makes no sense.

While there are still a number of very solid players on tour with one-handed backhands, the propensity of numbers (now around 92% of the top 100 women and about 77% of the top men), shows the two-handed backhand is the dominant stroke.

That said, I've never had a problem with a player who has indeed mastered the one-handed backhand.

(I'm as objective as they come: I've taught 35 years, personally use a one-handed backhand, taught one-handed backhands for the first almost ten years of my career...and now teach all beginner--regardless of them wanting to become pros or not--two-handed backhands.

Read my earlier post too: It is EXTREMELY rare to see a player first learn to hit two-handed not be able to hit one-handed backhands well. Nor do I find it a difficult transition for two-handers to move to a one-handed backhand if they find they just feel that is their stroke. HOWEVER, I have seen hundreds of players who first learned one-handed try to learn two-handed backhands with far greater difficulty and usually with most reverting back to their inferior but more comfortable one-handed backhand.

I won't label one backhand "superior" to another. However, I think I have enough experience to be able to say with certainty, that as a general learning pattern, the two-handed backhand works not just for those kids in the 8's, 10's and 12's be more successful, but that the stroke works for most players of all ages, far better than teaching the one-handed backhand.

If you talk to any qualified pro who has been around for a while and has produced successful players, ask them if they had 100 players and wanted to give all 100 the best chance at hitting backhands well, which shot they would teach.

Almost without exception, these pros would teach the two-handed backhand to those 100 students.

[CoachingMastery]

Originally Posted by tennisdad65

Two of the better players (5.0s) at the courts where I play have had TE for years. Both of them use a 2HBH, and the Band-IT arm band is part of their gear. So, factors other than the 1HBH also cause TE.

I guess the stiff racquets and poly strings are overtaking 1HBH as the primary cause of TE.

Of course. They may have aggrivated it using a chainsaw, playing racquetball, picking up a golf bag.

There can be many causes of TE including tennis. But, I've never seen a player get TE from a two-handed backhand.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by CoachingMastery

Drak, I've seen many "golfer's elbow" (aka server's elbow) developed from poor mechnics on the forehands side...never tennis elbow. It is almost biomechanically impossible since there is almost no stress to the lateral epicondyle of the elbow on the forehand. There IS stress to the medial epicondyle of the elbow on the forehand.

I suspect that you may see players who developed tennis elbow via backhand issues and simply are unaware of how they got it or that when it hurts it can hurt on all shots, forehands included, when the inflamation is bad.

Thank you! Excellent explanation. "Tennis elbow" is a specific malady as you explained, inflammation of the lateral epicondyle. The cause does not come from a bad forehand technique.

There are of course other injuries to the elbow that are not tennis elbow as per the definition. And as you also said, it can also hurt when you hit a forehand. But that does not mean the origination was the forehand.

[tennisdad65]

Originally Posted by CoachingMastery

......
If you talk to any qualified pro who has been around for a while and has produced successful players, ask them if they had 100 players and wanted to give all 100 the best chance at hitting backhands well, which shot they would teach. Almost without exception, these pros would teach the two-handed backhand to those 100 students.

That's because the short term results are better with 2HBH, and especially if they need to have results by the end of the class! If you gave them a 10 yr project with a kid starting at 5, they would think a bit harder.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by tennisdad65

Two of the better players (5.0s) at the courts where I play have had TE for years. Both of them use a 2HBH, and the Band-IT arm band is part of their gear. So, factors other than the 1HBH also cause TE.

I guess the stiff racquets and poly strings are overtaking 1HBH as the primary cause of TE.

Sure, as I said the two main causes to originate the pain are 1HB and stiff frames/strings. Once you start the ball rolling, lots of things can aggravate it. But bad forehand technique is not the origination of TE.