Problem with head compressed after strung

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by jgrushing

Sorry but that's complete BS. I've strung plenty of Radicals with no problem whatsoever. I simply mount the frame firmly, make sure it's secure and string the racquet. I've never purposely "stretched" a frame. Obviously, you didn't use the mounting on the KM well.

"The problem here is either the mounting system used, or the way in which the frame was mounted.". End of story. Klippermate knows it happens.. they gave me the fix... Stretch the frame. Their head tech gave me the advice.

[jgrushing]

You're previous post essentially says that a Head Radical can't be strung on a KM w/o compressing the head. A number of friends that I've strung for over the years play Radicals and other listed Head racquets. I am saying that I string them (and have) without compression.

It would surprise me that the folks at KlipperUSA would tell you to purposely stretch a frame. Not denying, just saying that's not the kind of answers I've received over the years when I've had questions.

I can easily understand how compression could occur with a KM. However, if the frame plates are tightened down with the lip edges securely against the racquet frame at the throat and the head, the racquets don't have any room to move. It must move at the top or the throat for compression to occur, in my mind. Of course, the wing nuts on the upward supports must be secured also. My only disaster, probably 15 years ago, happened when I didn't tighten one of the supports.

[rjw]

I don't have a lot of experience with all this, but I do have a pair of 30" long calipers and have measured the length and width of my apdgt's, strung on a BAB cp machine (6 point), unstrung, and after re-stringing on my model H (2 point)

All measurement were within 1 to 1.5 mm of each other

At first, I was not totally overjoyed, I understand why, in that the cp machine strung thm at a straight 58 and 60 while I strung them on my model H at 56/52 and 52/49

My thoughts are that if you stretch the hoop, either along it's length or width, it may springback to close to right on it's unstrung dimensions, but what happens to the actual tension.

Seems logical that if you string the mains at 60 after coaxing the length to be a bit longer, then it must lose some tension when it springs back?

Does this make sense to anyone?

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

Granted I don't measure each racquet as it comes off the stringer. But adding 10 pounds for a few millimeters? I don't care who the stringer is or what machine they use, that is terrible advice. I have always been told that stringing crosses substantially higher than mains is also bad for the frame. This certainly qualifies as substantial.

And, I also don't randomly add 10 pounds tension to crosses to compensate which screws up a string job just to make the frame look right. Have you ever played with a frame strung with a 10 pound difference between the mains and crosses? That is totally hosed, and IMO, terrible advice. I'm not being a "know-it-all" when I validly criticize that advice. It's terrible advice, it's not solving the original problem, it ruins the feel of a string job, and it results in a terrible end product for whoever was unlucky enough to pay for that string job.

Let me ask you, if you took your frame to someone to be strung say at 60 pounds, would you want them to add 10 pounds on the crosses to "striaghten it out"? How do you think a string job at 60 on the mains and 70 on the crosses would play? Hell, even 55 on the mains and 65 on the crosses?

Again, I simply cannot believe some of the "advice" that is being handed out. I don't think the issue is a couple of millimeters as much as it is telling someone to 'add 10 pounds' or stretch a frame by applying force to it. And FYI, I've strung plenty of Head frames and never seen any noticeable difference in the head shape after stringing.

Then, live with a shorter frame with a rounder head

You speak like a 10 lb. differential between crosses and mains is unheard of and is potentially frame damaging. People string with 10 lb. cross/main differentials all the time. Personally, if a Head frames slightly deforms post-stringing when pulled off the machine, I don't see it as a big deal. Others may not feel the same. I was giving a recommendation on how to prevent it.

Originally Posted by SteveI

"The problem here is either the mounting system used, or the way in which the frame was mounted.". End of story. Klippermate knows it happens.. they gave me the fix... Stretch the frame. Their head tech gave me the advice.

No, it's not. There are people who string 6 pt. mounting on this board who have also noticed certain head frames are rounder and shorter after being pulled from the machine. The issue sounds more like some people don't notice it or measure the frame length after stringing certain Head frames. If one doesn't notice, it's obviously not going to be an issue.

I've never experienced this phenomenon with any frames other than 3 or 4 Head frames (only) and I've strung 500+ frames on my 2-pt stringer. Coincidence? I'm afraid not.

Originally Posted by jgrushing

You're previous post essentially says that a Head Radical can't be strung on a KM w/o compressing the head. A number of friends that I've strung for over the years play Radicals and other listed Head racquets. I am saying that I string them (and have) without compression.

It would surprise me that the folks at KlipperUSA would tell you to purposely stretch a frame. Not denying, just saying that's not the kind of answers I've received over the years when I've had questions.

I can easily understand how compression could occur with a KM. However, if the frame plates are tightened down with the lip edges securely against the racquet frame at the throat and the head, the racquets don't have any room to move. It must move at the top or the throat for compression to occur, in my mind. Of course, the wing nuts on the upward supports must be secured also. My only disaster, probably 15 years ago, happened when I didn't tighten one of the supports.

We've all strung these same frames without them compressing. Nobody said it happens every type we string one. It occurs when the tension and/or stiffness of the main string overpowers the crosses. It simply pulls the head together longitudinally, making it appear slightly rounder. Once you recognize that, then measure the length and you''ll note, the frame is slightly less than 27" long.

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Bud

Then, live with a shorter frame with a rounder head

You speak like a 10 lb. differential between crosses and mains is unheard of and is potentially frame damaging. People string with 10 lb. cross/main differentials all the time. Personally, if a Head frames slightly deforms post-stringing when pulled off the machine, I don't see it as a big deal. Others may not feel the same. I was giving a recommendation on how to prevent it.

So, if a guy brings a racquet to you to string at 60 pounds, you have zero qualms of stringing it +10 on the crosses to make the frame look right? And, no, people don't string +10 difference all the time. I am still amazed that anyone would suggest such a difference especially in light of all the talk on these boards, you included, of a difference of a gram here or a balance point there.

And I don't live with a shorter, rounder head, just doesn't happen when I string on the Neos. And your recommendation is bogus, you don't do that to someone who has requested a tension.

[SteveI]

Head Compression:

1) It is not a problem with all frames and low end stringing machines.

2) It is a problem when you string certain frames with low end stringing machines. These low end stringing machines have too much flex or play in mounting supports or base. Or a both could be an issue.

3) This not a function of 2 point vs 6 point mounting systems. There are many fine machines that employ 2 point and 6 point systems.

4) When you combine certain frames and certain low end machines (Sorry Klippermate Users), you see head compression.

5) The frame I have seen this occur with are many of the Head Twin Tube models.. ie Radicals, Dunlop MW series. Some of Volkl line. You will not see head compession on a Wilson PS 6.1 and a POG.

6) Incorrect Mounting (User Error) on a good machine can also produce head compression with these certain frames

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

So, if a guy brings a racquet to you to string at 60 pounds, you have zero qualms of stringing it +10 on the crosses to make the frame look right? And, no, people don't string +10 difference all the time. I am still amazed that anyone would suggest such a difference especially in light of all the talk on these boards, you included, of a difference of a gram here or a balance point there.

And I don't live with a shorter, rounder head, just doesn't happen when I string on the Neos. And your recommendation is bogus, you don't do that to someone who has requested a tension.

Rabbit... the Neos is bulit like a tank.. you will not see head compression. The mounting system could withstand a bomb blast. The better made and older machines employ better materials and workmanship. The lower end systems are using thinner, lower grade materials and have design flaws. Thus the lower price. BTW.. folks do not string + or - 10 lbs difference all the time. If a customer requested it I would be nervous. The most I have ever done is 5 or 6. I would never do it without talking to the player 1st. Yikes...!!!

[jgrushing]

Originally Posted by SteveI

Head Compression:

1) It is not a problem with all frames and low end stringing machines.

2) It is a problem when you string certain frames with low end stringing machines. These low end stringing machines have too much flex or play in mounting supports or base. Or a both could be an issue.

3) This not a function of 2 point vs 6 point mounting systems. There are many fine machines that employ 2 point and 6 point systems.

4) When you combine certain frames and certain low end machines (Sorry Klippermatre Users), you see head compression.

5) The frame I have seen this occur with are many of the Head Twin Tube models.. ie Radicals, Dunlop MW series. Some of Volkl line. You will not see head compession on a Wilson PS 6.1 and a POG.

6) Incorrect Mounting (User Error) on a good machine can also produce head compression with these certain frames

I'm sorry to beat a dead horse but there is no flex in the mounting system on my Klippermate. Granted, mine's 20 years old and they might have changed it a bit. But the mounting posts on mine are half inch X 2 inch solid steel. You could pull 500 pounds of pressure on these and they're going nowhere. The most common racquets I string are Volkl V1 Classics and Dunlop Aerogels. Also, lots of Prince with O holes. Don't have a problem.

I still contend that poor mounting is the culprit in most of the cases. String tension differential could play a role also. I almost never string more than 2 pounds difference.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Rabbit

So, if a guy brings a racquet to you to string at 60 pounds, you have zero qualms of stringing it +10 on the crosses to make the frame look right? And, no, people don't string +10 difference all the time. I am still amazed that anyone would suggest such a difference especially in light of all the talk on these boards, you included, of a difference of a gram here or a balance point there.

And I don't live with a shorter, rounder head, just doesn't happen when I string on the Neos. And your recommendation is bogus, you don't do that to someone who has requested a tension.

Did I say that? Stop assuming

The OP noticed something and I offered a recommendation on how to prevent it.

A far as I'm concerned, this discussion between you and me on this issue is over.

[Kam2010]

I have a Tyger String Eco-45 stringing machine which I got pretty cheap about £240

I have strung about 15 rackets so far and only had this problem once and that was with a Head racket and this was only because it was too tight on the clamps once I cut the strings out ( Mains ) as it was a 2 piece job it went back to original shape and I restrung it after and it was perfectly fine.

I tried it on another 2 Head rackets and both were fine, I tried wooden rackets also they are good.

All I need now is some rubbing alcohol or nail polish remover so I can clean the damn thing and start stringing again!!

Always remember as YuLitle's video help very much and the guy is a legend simple as.
Anyway he explains on one video about mounting, it does not need to be tight at all just tight enough so the racket hardly moves from side to side.

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by SteveI

Rabbit... the Neos is bulit like a tank.. you will not see head compression. The mounting system could withstand a bomb blast. The better made and older machines employ better materials and workmanship. The lower end systems are using thinner, lower grade materials and have design flaws. Thus the lower price. BTW.. folks do not string + or - 10 lbs difference all the time. If a customer requested it I would be nervous. The most I have ever done is 5 or 6. I would never do it without talking to the player 1st. Yikes...!!!

Exactly. And to suggest that anyone add 10 pounds is just plain wrong no matter the circumstance.

Originally Posted by Bud

Did I say that? Stop assuming

The OP noticed something and I offered a recommendation on how to prevent it.

A far as I'm concerned, this discussion between you and me on this issue is over.

Did he say it was his racquet? Would you want someone doing that to your racquet? My question was if you would do that to make a racquet brought to you look right.

Your recommendation was bogus, that's my point.

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by jgrushing

I'm sorry to beat a dead horse but there is no flex in the mounting system on my Klippermate. Granted, mine's 20 years old and they might have changed it a bit. But the mounting posts on mine are half inch X 2 inch solid steel. You could pull 500 pounds of pressure on these and they're going nowhere. The most common racquets I string are Volkl V1 Classics and Dunlop Aerogels. Also, lots of Prince with O holes. Don't have a problem.

I still contend that poor mounting is the culprit in most of the cases. String tension differential could play a role also. I almost never string more than 2 pounds difference.

It is very possible that the Klippermate was better made 20 years ago. There are so many reports of this issue, can't all be mounting errors. If you check and do a search (as Bud stated.. asked and explored over and over) there are many, many threads. Back to what I said...way back many times. Bad machines and bad mounting...

[dadozen]

Just strung my new YT Prestiges and no problems at all with head distortion. I even compared the first racquet I strung with another one that was still unstrungs, and no distortion at all.

I have a Gamma X6-FC, 6 point mounting.

I also already strung a YT prestige Mid and another YT Prestige MP and no problems as well.

[Rabbit]

Originally Posted by dadozen

Just strung my new YT Prestiges and no problems at all with head distortion. I even compared the first racquet I strung with another one that was still unstrungs, and no distortion at all.

I have a Gamma X6-FC, 6 point mounting.

I also already strung a YT prestige Mid and another YT Prestige MP and no problems as well.

Hmmmm....could we deduce then that the problem may be between the floor and the tensioning mechanicsm somewhere?

[Irvin]

All this got me curious and I had a Head YouTek Three Star come in. I measured the racket and here are the results:

Unbroken strings in racket - 27 10/16"
No strings in racket - 27 10/16"
Mounted racket no strings - 27 11/16"
4 center mains tensioned - 27 10/16"
8 center mains tensioned - 27 9/16"
12 center mains tensioned - 27 8/16"
all 16 mains tensioned - 27 7/16"
Knots tied clamps released - 27 7/16"
top four crosses tensioned - 27 8/16"
top eight crosses tensioned - 27 9/16"
top twelve crosses tensioned - 27 9/16"
all crosses tensioned - 27 10/16"
crosses ties off - 27 10/16"
racket unmounted - 27 10/16"

Mains and crosses were strung with Gamma SG w/WearGuard @ 57 lbs 2 piece pattern. Racket was compressed 3/16" stringing the mains but all length was recovered when crosses were strung. End result was the same as the start.

Irvin

[Bud]

Originally Posted by dadozen

Just strung my new YT Prestiges and no problems at all with head distortion. I even compared the first racquet I strung with another one that was still unstrungs, and no distortion at all.

I have a Gamma X6-FC, 6 point mounting.

I also already strung a YT prestige Mid and another YT Prestige MP and no problems as well.

Nobody said it happens on every Head frame every time it's strung. It depends on the tension and the string used.

Seriously, this issue has been documented going back years. It happens on every type of stringing machine. Is it a coincidence it's always Head frames? Probably not. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not depending on the type of string used and the tension.

Let's stop beating a dead horse here like others have stated.

Originally Posted by Kam2010

I have a Tyger String Eco-45 stringing machine which I got pretty cheap about £240

I have strung about 15 rackets so far and only had this problem once and that was with a Head racket and this was only because it was too tight on the clamps once I cut the strings out ( Mains ) as it was a 2 piece job it went back to original shape and I restrung it after and it was perfectly fine.

Again, a Head frame.

Of course it will go back to its original shape once the strings are cut out. Clamping too tight won't make a head compress.

Why is it a few of you continue to refute this?

[SteveI]

Originally Posted by dadozen

Just strung my new YT Prestiges and no problems at all with head distortion. I even compared the first racquet I strung with another one that was still unstrungs, and no distortion at all.

I have a Gamma X6-FC, 6 point mounting.

I also already strung a YT prestige Mid and another YT Prestige MP and no problems as well.

Thanks for the post...

Not going to see any problem with a Gamma X6-FC 6 point. That is not a low end machine in my book. When I am talking low end.. Alpha String Pal....Klippermate etc.

The results I was getting on the Klippermate was anywhere from 1/16 to 1/4 inch shortening.

Many folks just don't notice the issue until you get 2 or 3 of the same frame and have strung done on in a proshop. Then you notice....Hummmm... wow that does not seem right. You can reallly see it on a Radical O/S.

[Irvin]

Just strung a Wilson (K)Three but did not take all the same measurements. The results were:

Pre-Strung from Wilson - 27 17/32"
No strings - 27 16/32"
Mounted - 27 18/32"
14 center mains tensioned - 27 9/32"
3rd to 18th cross tensioned - 27 16/32"
After completing ATW - 27 16/32"
unmounted 27 16/32"

Strung with Gamma Live Wire XP 17 gauge @ 62 lbs. Although the head compressed a little more with the Wilson racket the end result was the same strung and unstrung on both rackets. I imagine the Wilson compressed a bit more because the tension was higher.

Irvin

[dadozen]

Originally Posted by Bud

Nobody said it happens on every Head frame every time it's strung. It depends on the tension and the string used.

Seriously, this issue has been documented going back years. It happens on every type of stringing machine. Is it a coincidence it's always Head frames? Probably not. Sometimes it happens, sometimes not depending on the type of string used and the tension.

Let's stop beating a dead horse here like others have stated.


...

Bud, I by no means wanted to beat a dead horse by posting that. I just decided to share my experience since the subject was about, mainly, Head frames and frame distortion. And I just started stringing by myself 4 months ago.

As Irvin has written, I also noticed that all frames elongates a bit after mounted, but they all come to their normal shape after strung.

[rjw]

I would like to know what you guys are using to measure the hoops?

A tape measure is probably a joke...try a set of vernier calipers and tell me what you get, before and after...

jmo