WTA pro in an Open tournament

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by ian2

skiracer, thanks for answering that question. I agree with all you've said. I'd add that there was one single thing that jumped at me the most: the purpose behind each shot. I can't quite explain it: it wasn't just the placement combined with power, but something else that eludes me... perhaps the instinctual knowledge where to hit the ball in a given point situation? The end result was that, in this match anyway, Vasilisa wasn't hitting any neutral, let alone defensive, shots. The first shot she hit in a point immediately forced her opponent into a defensive position, and the next shot, if needed, would build on that advantage.

...and it's something I noticed in the Men's Open draw, too. It's something we'll work on the next time we hit. Playing Open or above level, to me the strokes are one aspect, but they're playing to a whole different tempo. If I watch a 4.0 or even 4.5 match, the tempo is...hit the ball, maybe with an objective, but probably not...watch it go over the net...wait to see what the opponent is doing...watch the ball come back over the net...maybe start moving to the shot, at this point...repeat, ad nauseum.


The best players always have a purpose behind each point and in each shot. For the server, before the point, the thought might be "Okay, I've got him off balance, it's 40-15, I'm going for a serve out wide to the forehand, move in, look to cut off the volley cross court for a winner." The receiver might be thinking, "So fine...this jamoke is serving really well. I've got to dig in, get the return back, and make him play. Watch his toss, watch his motion, make a move as soon as the ball leaves his racket, track it down, be a ballhawk, make it!"

If the point doesn't play out that way, the top players have an ability to adjust but still keep the purpose going. As in "Okay, fine, he picked up that wide serve, now I have a forehand volley, no problem, punch it into the backhand corner, wade in." The returner might be, "Great, got the return in and down low, he made a good volley, track it down, lob over his head and recover because he's been nailing your passing shots..." But the purpose didn't change, for the server it's still "Put the pressure on early, then tighten the vice even more." For the returner it's "Make him play, make him run, make him hit two or three winners to win a point...nobody can keep that up all afternoon."

Making those on the fly adjustments and still keeping the purpose is pretty amazing stuff, and we all need to work on this kind of tempo. Remember the Men's Final? I think it was about 3-3 in the second set, after Willie Dann won the first set. Willie, who is left handed, served and volleyed, Rich Johnson got to the ball and lobbed topspin over Willie's right shoulder...and Willie switched hands while he was going up for the overhead and put the smash away for a winner...right handed. I was thoroughly impressed, and he's 40 years old. I'm not sure most of the spectators even saw what happened...

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by ian2

Abusive father, yes. Broke her leg for losing a match - as far as I know, no.

I hope she'll do well in the US Open National Playoffs later this month, and gets the wild card. BTW, the woman she beat in that match I described, Yana Ruegsegger, also advanced to US Open National Playoffs, in mixed doubles with Miikka Keronen. Good luck to all of them!

...Colorado players. Mikka and Yana are quite the athletes, and have been dedicated players for a bunch of years, as they are both thirty somethings...the lesson being, Aim High, as they say in the Air Force, and don't let age be a barrier to your aspirations on court...

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by ian2

skiracer, thanks for answering that question. I agree with all you've said. I'd add that there was one single thing that jumped at me the most: the purpose behind each shot. I can't quite explain it: it wasn't just the placement combined with power, but something else that eludes me... perhaps the instinctual knowledge where to hit the ball in a given point situation? The end result was that, in this match anyway, Vasilisa wasn't hitting any neutral, let alone defensive, shots. The first shot she hit in a point immediately forced her opponent into a defensive position, and the next shot, if needed, would build on that advantage.

...follow up with a couple more thoughts on this concept of purposeful tennis. We've heard it said that the great champions...Federer, Nadal, Djoko, become great champions because they play the big points well. I was talking with one of my hitting partners today, and we decided that that is the case because these guys try to play every point well. So when a point that the match hinges on comes along, it's business as usual. I think that's something we can all improve on. Playing every point well doesn't mean going for an incredible winner. It means doing whatever the right thing is in the situation. Today, the guy I was playing, who is really quick and has great strokes, was beating up on me pretty well in the second set even though I was hitting some really good shots and doing a lot of stuff right. What I wasn't doing was getting consistent, rally ball, length on the ground stroke exchanges. I was either going for too much and hitting 6 inches out, or hitting a tentative short ball that let him come in and win the point at net. So I just decided that if I got into a baseline exchange, heavy, deep, cross court was the way to go, and it won me my next service game.

Your match purpose doesn't have to be all that complex, either. Just because a strategy is simple, straightforward, and logical doesn't mean it's easy. I was talking with another of my buddies, who used to coach for Peter Burwash, whose son now coaches in the Dallas area and had the opportunity to pick the brain of the coach of an ATP top 35 player (I'm not going to so which player, because I don't want to give away his mojo). Here's this guy's strategy in a nutshell, and I'll give you a hint, because he's about 6' 7" and has a huge serve and forehand:

- Serve out wide on the first serve.

- Serve to the backhand on the second serve.

- The default ground stroke goes cross court.

- Look for a chance to hit a big forehand on your second shot off the ground.

Not too hard to remember, right? The trick is sticking to it, and executing...

[DEH]

Originally Posted by Serveand...

hey Ian, what racket was she using?

Here is a article on the tourny.
http://www.dailycamera.com/tennis/ci...803?source=rss

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by DEH

Here is a article on the tourny.
http://www.dailycamera.com/tennis/ci...803?source=rss

...cool stuff...

[tamdoankc]

Reminds me of an older guy I used to know when I was a youngster. Former pro from the wood generation. Made it to the finals of every Open tourney in town but always had to default the finals because he's a preacher and didn't play on Sundays. Old school pro with a wooden racquet>Open player with modern equipment.

Also, my former high school coach was a top 100 player in the early 80s. Plays with a cheap Walmart racquet but still kills.

[Black Knight]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...and it's something I noticed in the Men's Open draw, too. It's something we'll work on the next time we hit. Playing Open or above level, to me the strokes are one aspect, but they're playing to a whole different tempo. If I watch a 4.0 or even 4.5 match, the tempo is...hit the ball, maybe with an objective, but probably not...watch it go over the net...wait to see what the opponent is doing...watch the ball come back over the net...maybe start moving to the shot, at this point...repeat, ad nauseum.


The best players always have a purpose behind each point and in each shot. For the server, before the point, the thought might be "Okay, I've got him off balance, it's 40-15, I'm going for a serve out wide to the forehand, move in, look to cut off the volley cross court for a winner." The receiver might be thinking, "So fine...this jamoke is serving really well. I've got to dig in, get the return back, and make him play. Watch his toss, watch his motion, make a move as soon as the ball leaves his racket, track it down, be a ballhawk, make it!"

If the point doesn't play out that way, the top players have an ability to adjust but still keep the purpose going. As in "Okay, fine, he picked up that wide serve, now I have a forehand volley, no problem, punch it into the backhand corner, wade in." The returner might be, "Great, got the return in and down low, he made a good volley, track it down, lob over his head and recover because he's been nailing your passing shots..." But the purpose didn't change, for the server it's still "Put the pressure on early, then tighten the vice even more." For the returner it's "Make him play, make him run, make him hit two or three winners to win a point...nobody can keep that up all afternoon."

Making those on the fly adjustments and still keeping the purpose is pretty amazing stuff, and we all need to work on this kind of tempo. Remember the Men's Final? I think it was about 3-3 in the second set, after Willie Dann won the first set. Willie, who is left handed, served and volleyed, Rich Johnson got to the ball and lobbed topspin over Willie's right shoulder...and Willie switched hands while he was going up for the overhead and put the smash away for a winner...right handed. I was thoroughly impressed, and he's 40 years old. I'm not sure most of the spectators even saw what happened...

Some really interesting comments here. The tempo of the point is something your never really notice unless you are actually playing it yourself. With each ball coming so fast and deep, time and time again, you have little chance I guess, to formulate a plan as it is happening, especially if you are not used to that kind of play. That's probably why Skiracer, you mentioned the need for that plan for each point before you actually get in to it. If you have an idea of what you want to do, and through practice you've gained confidence in your ability to do it each time, then you probably won't be put off as much by that kind of constant pressure.

I guess it is why a lot of the pros say they gain their practice from matches during the season.

Nice one! Your posts made for some interesting reading!

[Blade0324]

Ian and Skiracer, it has been really insightfull reading your posts on this. I wasn't able to make it up to watch the final so I am glad to hear some details besides just seeing the score line.
You both sound like you have been around the higher levels here is Denver and elsewhere for some time and have a good knowledge of the players. Interesting that you mention this gal working with Salzenstein as we only have a few former ATP guys here in town and he definately has a great rep, wasn't he working with Alexa Glatch for a while too?
I have a buddy that might be interested in playing some open dubs if either of you are interested perhaps we can find a way to set something up. This is a guy that I have hit with for a while know and played one tourney with. Unfortunately I'm just not good enough to do him justice. He is one of those former ATP top 100 guys here in Denver, just a little older (now 45). Having played competitive event with him I have to agree with you on how he just knows where to go with the ball and what kind of shot. He even has the ability to convey that to me in our match. A fine example is when we would discus where to serve and what serve to hit before a point on my serve as well as him letting me know what he would be doing. Frequently I would tell him I'm going to do X, and he would say no I think you need to do Y and then follow it up with Z. I listened to him and have never had so much success holding serve. He just has a knowledge and understanding that you don't find at a 4.5-5.0 level even. It's not all about pace on serve or other shots for that matter. Knowing what shot to hit at the right time makes such a huge difference, and this creates a kind of anticipation on your opponents response that makes is seem like you always know exactly what they are going to do.

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Black Knight

Some really interesting comments here. The tempo of the point is something your never really notice unless you are actually playing it yourself. With each ball coming so fast and deep, time and time again, you have little chance I guess, to formulate a plan as it is happening, especially if you are not used to that kind of play. That's probably why Skiracer, you mentioned the need for that plan for each point before you actually get in to it. If you have an idea of what you want to do, and through practice you've gained confidence in your ability to do it each time, then you probably won't be put off as much by that kind of constant pressure.

I guess it is why a lot of the pros say they gain their practice from matches during the season.

Nice one! Your posts made for some interesting reading!

...I think you've got some good perceptions. John Newcombe used to call it "preacting." My former coach, Dave Hodge, used to talk about putting a videotape in your head of what you wanted to do on the serve...and then rerunning the video to make it happen.

There's a drill that another of my former coaches, Sam Winterbotham (now head coach of the Tennessee Vols men's team), used to do with me. And that is, without rushing it, whoever has a ball in his hand starts the point with a serve, play the point out, quick breath, start the next point. No score, the idea is to get the flow, the tempo, that you want in point play and keep it going, build on it.

Basic pattern play isn't a bad idea, either, as a drill. One I do with one of my hitting partners, just a bread and butter movement to the net point, goes like this: I chip a short ball to his backhand, he hits the approach down the line, I hit a pass to the center of the court, now the gloves are off, play the point out. Repeat 10 times, then switch to the other side. Even if you're not a player who likes spending a lot of time at the net, this drill is a good one because it will force you to (a) up-tempo your point play and movement (but you still have to stay smooth to make it work) (b) hit precisely under pressure...try it, you'll like it...

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Blade0324

Ian and Skiracer, it has been really insightfull reading your posts on this. I wasn't able to make it up to watch the final so I am glad to hear some details besides just seeing the score line.
You both sound like you have been around the higher levels here is Denver and elsewhere for some time and have a good knowledge of the players. Interesting that you mention this gal working with Salzenstein as we only have a few former ATP guys here in town and he definately has a great rep, wasn't he working with Alexa Glatch for a while too?
I have a buddy that might be interested in playing some open dubs if either of you are interested perhaps we can find a way to set something up. This is a guy that I have hit with for a while know and played one tourney with. Unfortunately I'm just not good enough to do him justice. He is one of those former ATP top 100 guys here in Denver, just a little older (now 45). Having played competitive event with him I have to agree with you on how he just knows where to go with the ball and what kind of shot. He even has the ability to convey that to me in our match. A fine example is when we would discus where to serve and what serve to hit before a point on my serve as well as him letting me know what he would be doing. Frequently I would tell him I'm going to do X, and he would say no I think you need to do Y and then follow it up with Z. I listened to him and have never had so much success holding serve. He just has a knowledge and understanding that you don't find at a 4.5-5.0 level even. It's not all about pace on serve or other shots for that matter. Knowing what shot to hit at the right time makes such a huge difference, and this creates a kind of anticipation on your opponents response that makes is seem like you always know exactly what they are going to do.

...I haven't played a whole lot of doubles lately, so I'd have to get my doubles chops back together, but let's think about it. For the record, Ian is a 3.5 trying to get to 4.0...but he's a whole lot better, IMHO, than those numbers. In another thread you might find interesting, which I'll point you in a minute, Ian and I met, he thought I had some good ideas, I have done some coaching (a 3.0-3.5 group and a 4.0-4.5 group in Longmont last year), so I've been hitting with him and giving him what help I can on his game...although IMHO he's well on his way without my help.

Again, for the record, I'm 63, my strokes are probably 5.0 ish...but I don't play NTRP or age groups any more. I just play Men's Open events. I love the challenge and believe I'm gonna get there, but it's going to take some further heavy lifting. In the Boulder Open, I lost first round to a guy who just graduated from Denver East and is going on to play at a Div 1 school back east. Good match, he was just better in the two important departments that day, serve and return. I was fortunate enough to have as my coaches the men's coaches at CU Boulder before they cut the program; that's where a lot of my fundamentals and coaching methods come from.

So, let's start with this: if you want to hit some balls some time, send me an email (my account says I can receive emails from other TW folks), and we'll hit some. I live in Berthoud, but travel all over to meet my hitting partners, so I'm more than happy to play at Gates or whatever works for you. I have a tournament starting in Fort Collins today and I'm going to be driving my 350Z on the track at High Plains all weekend, so next week is better...talk to you soon!

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...ght=skiracer55

[ian2]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...I haven't played a whole lot of doubles lately, so I'd have to get my doubles chops back together, but let's think about it. For the record, Ian is a 3.5 trying to get to 4.0...but he's a whole lot better, IMHO, than those numbers. In another thread you might find interesting, which I'll point you in a minute, Ian and I met, he thought I had some good ideas, I have done some coaching (a 3.0-3.5 group and a 4.0-4.5 group in Longmont last year), so I've been hitting with him and giving him what help I can on his game...although IMHO he's well on his way without my help.
:
:

Hey Blade, skiracer outed me, LOL. Actually, I've never made a secret of my level. 3.5, guilty as charged. I'm playing 4.0 leagues and tourneys this season and doing OK but not great. Basically I have decent strokes and that allows me to rally with 4.5+ guys in practice, on the rare occasions that happens. What I don't have is a cohesive game; being able to understand the game from the sidelines is not the same as being able to apply that understanding to my own matches... not yet anyway.

Now that full disclosure is over: if you still want to hit, great, email me through my account. And if not, no hurt feelings.

This thread veered off track in unexpected directions; I'd like to loop back to the original topic and once again wish luck to all Colorado players in the US Open National Playoffs. To Vasilisa Bardina in particular: she has a realistic chance to make it, and what a story that would be!

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by ian2

Hey Blade, skiracer outed me, LOL. Actually, I've never made a secret of my level. 3.5, guilty as charged. I'm playing 4.0 leagues and tourneys this season and doing OK but not great. Basically I have decent strokes and that allows me to rally with 4.5+ guys in practice, on the rare occasions that happens. What I don't have is a cohesive game; being able to understand the game from the sidelines is not the same as being able to apply that understanding to my own matches... not yet anyway.

Now that full disclosure is over: if you still want to hit, great, email me through my account. And if not, no hurt feelings.

This thread veered off track in unexpected directions; I'd like to loop back to the original topic and once again wish luck to all Colorado players in the US Open National Playoffs. To Vasilisa Bardina in particular: she has a realistic chance to make it, and what a story that would be!

...best of luck to all CO players...Ian, do you know where we can see results?

[ian2]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...best of luck to all CO players...Ian, do you know where we can see results?

here: http://usta.usopen.org/US-Open/2011_...onal_playoffs/

[Arafel]

Originally Posted by ian2

Arafel, sounds like you have a story to tell! Would you share? How was it playing against a bona-fide (albeit a somewhat rusty) pro?

The pace and anticipation are what amazed me. I mean, I am over 40, and I stopped playing for 15 years after college due to burnout, but I was never a top level junior, so take this for what is worth. I would play tournaments in New York and win a round or two before losing. What I remember about playing Vas though is that there was no time to set up. If I wasn't immediately ready to hit again after my follow through, I was screwed. Likewise, if I hit short, I was immediately on the defensive, or the point was over. There was a feeling that I had to hit every shot perfectly just to be able to get a rally going.

Vasilisa beat me 6-1, 6-0. I got to deuce a few times besides the game I won. I distinctly remember cracking a hard flat first serve wide to her forehand (I am lefty) in the deuce court at deuce and it felt like before I had even finished my follow through the ball was at my feet. I sort of flashed to that first set tiebreaker between Roddick and Federer in the 2007 US Open, when Federer did something like that to Andy. I just shook my head and said aloud, "That's just not fair."

Vas had a big support section watching, and they encouraged me a few times, saying she had been inside the top 50 in the world. When I made the not fair comment, they all laughed, but it was a good, sympathetic laughter, not mean.

I can also tell you that Vasilisa is a really nice person on and off the court. We both work with Jeff Salzenstein as our coach, and I've run into her a few times either as I was leaving or arriving, and chatted for a couple of moments. I really hope she makes the main draw.

[ian2]

Originally Posted by Arafel

The pace and anticipation are what amazed me. I mean, I am over 40, and I stopped playing for 15 years after college due to burnout, but I was never a top level junior, so take this for what is worth. I would play tournaments in New York and win a round or two before losing. What I remember about playing Vas though is that there was no time to set up. If I wasn't immediately ready to hit again after my follow through, I was screwed. Likewise, if I hit short, I was immediately on the defensive, or the point was over. There was a feeling that I had to hit every shot perfectly just to be able to get a rally going.

Vasilisa beat me 6-1, 6-0. I got to deuce a few times besides the game I won. I distinctly remember cracking a hard flat first serve wide to her forehand (I am lefty) in the deuce court at deuce and it felt like before I had even finished my follow through the ball was at my feet. I sort of flashed to that first set tiebreaker between Roddick and Federer in the 2007 US Open, when Federer did something like that to Andy. I just shook my head and said aloud, "That's just not fair."

Vas had a big support section watching, and they encouraged me a few times, saying she had been inside the top 50 in the world. When I made the not fair comment, they all laughed, but it was a good, sympathetic laughter, not mean.

I can also tell you that Vasilisa is a really nice person on and off the court. We both work with Jeff Salzenstein as our coach, and I've run into her a few times either as I was leaving or arriving, and chatted for a couple of moments. I really hope she makes the main draw.

Great story Arafel, thank you for sharing! And BTW, keeping it somewhat competitive against her: awesome!

[Black Knight]

If I only I was closer as well!! I would take you up on your offer of a hit Skiracer and Ian- san!

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Black Knight

If I only I was closer as well!! I would take you up on your offer of a hit Skiracer and Ian- san!

...I thought you were in Colorado, for whatever reason...just another excuse for a road trip...

[Black Knight]

Originally Posted by skiracer55

...I thought you were in Colorado, for whatever reason...just another excuse for a road trip...

Never need an excuse for a roadtrip!! And are always welcome!

[ian2]

Update: Bardina advanced to the second round of US Open National Qualifiers over Caroline Dailey (walkover; I don't know why Dailey didn't play). Bardina will be playing #2 seed Yasmin Schnack next. Intermountain men qualifiers winner Angelo Faustion lost to Tony Larson (who I believe frequents this board). I couldn't find info on the mixed qualifiers results.

[jhick]

Originally Posted by ian2

I couldn't find info on the mixed qualifiers results.

FYI, the mixed qualifiers aren't until next weekend.