OK, so what should I work on next?

[Torres]

@ Cindy.

It's hard to suggest specific goals without seeing your game, where the weaknesses lie and what's realistic within a reasonable timeframe based on how often you play and how committed you are etc.

I started playing mixed leagues in the last few months and of the women that I've seen, which range from 1st team 1st pairs, to 4th team 3rd pairs, I would make the following observations:

1. Develop a good 1st serve, rather than just plopping the ball in. It will give you such an advantage.

2. You need to be strong off both wings and be able to hit deep and/or at pace; preferably both so work on shoring up any holes.

3. Speed and movement around the court. The number of women that I see who cannot run is frankly, shocking. Equally are those women who do not move with their partner and don't cover spaces or think about recovering court positions.

4. Consistency and solidity is everything at 3.5-4.0 level. The majority of games at this level are won by those who make fewest forced/unforced errors.

5. Work on developing a good lob and being able to neutralize the rally when you're in trouble or under pressure. Even the top players do this and are very good at doing it.

6. Linked to 3 above, but if alot of your opponents hit with no pace, or hit ploppy serves, and can't run, being able to hit drop shots well can often lead to free points or forced errors from your 'cant run, no pace, ploppy serve' opponent who simply won't be able to get there or will be stretching outside of their comfort zone.

[Cindysphinx]

Ok, this is helpful.

As I look over Torres' list, I am trying to think of things that are a good use of lesson time. Well, there things that my 5.0 pro can do that I can't replicate with a practice partner. Like dealing with pace and spin.

I have to say, hitting with New Pro has done me a world of good because we rally live a lot. Maybe that is what I need.

This is good. I feel like I am ready to have the conversation about next steps.

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Ok, this is helpful.

As I look over Torres' list, I am trying to think of things that are a good use of lesson time. Well, there things that my 5.0 pro can do that I can't replicate with a practice partner. Like dealing with pace and spin.

I have to say, hitting with New Pro has done me a world of good because we rally live a lot. Maybe that is what I need.

This is good. I feel like I am ready to have the conversation about next steps.

Awesome job Cindy! For sure there are things that Pro's can do that others can't. They are great for getting returns down, especially if they hit with some pace towards you. I think that's one of the greatest things Pro's can do for your game.

BTW, good luck on moving to 4.0! I can't wait to see your results!

-Fuji

[skiracer55]

Originally Posted by Torres

@ Cindy.

It's hard to suggest specific goals without seeing your game, where the weaknesses lie and what's realistic within a reasonable timeframe based on how often you play and how committed you are etc.

I started playing mixed leagues in the last few months and of the women that I've seen, which range from 1st team 1st pairs, to 4th team 3rd pairs, I would make the following observations:

1. Develop a good 1st serve, rather than just plopping the ball in. It will give you such an advantage.

2. You need to be strong off both wings and be able to hit deep and/or at pace; preferably both so work on shoring up any holes.

3. Speed and movement around the court. The number of women that I see who cannot run is frankly, shocking. Equally are those women who do not move with their partner and don't cover spaces or think about recovering court positions.

4. Consistency and solidity is everything at 3.5-4.0 level. The majority of games at this level are won by those who make fewest forced/unforced errors.

5. Work on developing a good lob and being able to neutralize the rally when you're in trouble or under pressure. Even the top players do this and are very good at doing it.

6. Linked to 3 above, but if alot of your opponents hit with no pace, or hit ploppy serves, and can't run, being able to hit drop shots well can often lead to free points or forced errors from your 'cant run, no pace, ploppy serve' opponent who simply won't be able to get there or will be stretching outside of their comfort zone.

...and, as torres points out, it's really hard to give specific suggestions on your game without seeing your game. You've made a bazillion posts, but not one video that I know of. It would make life a lot easier if you could come up with one of those.

Where torres is headed with this list is a good thing. To me, it kind of gets at two major division, which are the following:

- I just became a 4.0...how do I win matches? It's entirely possible to do so by (1) Continue to push the same old strokes you already have, (2) Do a little work in the gym, because it'll make you a better athlete, and (3) Find a better partner...because NTRP is pretty much all doubles, right?

It's not quite that simple, but you get the joke. I spend a lot of time on the court, and I get to watch a lot of NTRP players, league matches, round robins, and so forth. The predominant one I see is women's 3.5 doubles, and it's pretty much cookie cutter tennis, and I'll bet it doesn't vary much through the USA. While I was working out with my regular hitting partner the other day, I was also watching a 3.5 women's doubles match on the next court, and I have to say it was really disheartening. The funny thing was, they were all good athletes, moved well, there were some decent strokes among the not so decent strokes...but overall, the play was pathetic. Player 1 had an excellent serve, which she would crank in...and then stand back waiting to see what would happen next, which often led to her team's losing the point. Player 2, on the other side, had a great return...which she never followed up on. I could coach 2 never evers who would listen to what I had to say for 3 days and they could beat either team.

- The second way of looking at this is, Okay, I just became a 4.0, and everybody in the world seems to be following the exact same path...which doesn't make any sense to me, because insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results...so what do I have to do to distance myself from the crowd?

The answer to that, I believe, is three part:

- Play more singles, less doubles. Doubles is a great game, but you'll only know what you can do, and where you can go, if you're the only one on your side of the net.

- Play fewer matches, train more. What you do has to be informed...if you're just practicing your mistakes, it doesn't matter how much time you spend on the court.

- Adopt an aggressive mindset. Think about tennis as a game where you win the match rather than a contest where you do a bunch of stuff and hope the your opponent takes gas and hands you the match.

There's this whole theory, called "The 10,000 Hours" about how athletes become the top level. It's not what I keep seeing in the TW forums, which is "How many hours will it take me to become a 5.0?" There's no single answer to that question. If what you're doing is practicing poor stroke production, if you're not the athlete you should be, if you have no clue about what strategy is and what you're game is, you can spend 100,000 hours on the court and not be any better than you are right now..and maybe be even worse.

The idea of the 10,000 hours is that you first learn to do the right things, then you ingrain them over 10,000 hours worth of practice so that the winning moves are instinctual. You don't have to think about them any more. As some of the Zen and martial arts people say, "Don't think, just do." Or, as my avatar says "Watch the ball, hit it hard, and don't think."

The converse of this is that whatever you do for 10,000 hours, or maybe even a lot less, is what will be ingrained in your muscle memory and in your instincts, so it's what you'll do in a quick fire tennis point. As Peter Burwash noted, "Tennis is a series of controlled emergencies," and your job is not to think your way through those emergencies, but to ingrain bomb-proof reactions to those emergencies that happen without conscious thought.

So that's the sermon for today: Stop thinking about your next league match at a new level. Stop thinking about how you can make a 2% improvement on what you already have, especially if it's flawed. Instead, figure out what it means for you to do it right, make that happen, and then make it automatic...

[Off The Wall]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I'm kind of at a weird place with tennis. I'm 3.5, but I will likely soon be 4.0. I play seniors, ladies and mixed.

I take lessons, but I am feeling a certain lack of focus. I guess I need to figure out what new skill (or improved skill) will help me most in making the transition to a higher level as a doubles player.

Options include:

1. More action on the slice serve, and a better topspin serve. I do not hit a flat serve because I cannot generate enough pace to bother anyone.

2. Heavier FH. I hit a topspin FH, but I really would love a ball that dives right before it hits the baseline.

3. Slice groundstrokes. My BH slice floats and lacks directional control. My FH slice is great when I hit it well, but I can't aim it.

4. Heavier and more accurate volleys, especially approach volleys.

Any thoughts? I do prefer to focus on one thing at a time rather than trying to do many things at once in a lesson. This is especially since it gets hard to practice what is learned once winter gets here.

1. Work on a power slice serve. It's an excellent basis for your other spins.
2. Yes, a good dipping TS is a good doubles shot; keep them low.
3. Slices are a good transition option. Start by not going for Fed-type spin. Open the racquet a bit and swing on a small decline. It crosses the net low and stays low.
4. Work on volleys. If you and your hitting partner can stand halfway in the service box and make each other hit volleys up, well, you'll have excellent touch.

[Maui19]

My pro would tell you this: work on getting to the net. Period. Because that is where the game of doubles is won. Obviously there are a lot of components to this, but for starters, being able to serve and volley is the first thing. And this largely comes down to being able to make that first volley effectively. Can you hit that first volley deep all the time? Can you dig out that return that comes back at your feet? Can you do it every time? Can you serve effectively enough that your opponents hit a fair number of soft returns back to you? (FWIW, I hit about 85% kick serves in dubs. I find at my level, 3.5-4.0, returners have more trouble with that than a hard flat serve. I mix locations and speeds, and when I do hit the heater, it looks a lot faster because I don't use it much.) Can you put away the soft returns when you see them? And when they start to lob their returns, can you put those away as well?

Once you have that package in your repertoire, I would work on a max topspin FH that you can hit consistently deep. This is a shot you can come in behind because 1) it gives you more time to get to the net than a hard flat shot, and 2) players have trouble hitting this shot back effectively. So you'll be closer to the net and getting more soft shots back at you. Win-win.

However I wouldn't even think about the FH until your S&V is absolutely bulletproof. When that happens, you should be knocking on the door of 4.5.

[Torres]

Originally Posted by Maui19

My pro would tell you this: work on getting to the net. Period. Etc Etc

This isn't Cara Black and Liezel Huber. This is womens 3.5 recreational doubles. Whilst I don't disagree with the principle of what you're saying, I don't think what you're suggesting is realistic. Even at mens 4.5 level, the majority of players do not have a "absolutely bulletproof" S&V game, so I don't understand how you can say forget about working on groundstrokes when 3.5 womens doubles is largely played off the ground.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Maui19

My pro would tell you this: work on getting to the net. Period. Because that is where the game of doubles is won. Obviously there are a lot of components to this, but for starters, being able to serve and volley is the first thing. And this largely comes down to being able to make that first volley effectively. Can you hit that first volley deep all the time? Can you dig out that return that comes back at your feet? Can you do it every time? Can you serve effectively enough that your opponents hit a fair number of soft returns back to you? (FWIW, I hit about 85% kick serves in dubs. I find at my level, 3.5-4.0, returners have more trouble with that than a hard flat serve. I mix locations and speeds, and when I do hit the heater, it looks a lot faster because I don't use it much.) Can you put away the soft returns when you see them? And when they start to lob their returns, can you put those away as well?

Once you have that package in your repertoire, I would work on a max topspin FH that you can hit consistently deep. This is a shot you can come in behind because 1) it gives you more time to get to the net than a hard flat shot, and 2) players have trouble hitting this shot back effectively. So you'll be closer to the net and getting more soft shots back at you. Win-win.

However I wouldn't even think about the FH until your S&V is absolutely bulletproof. When that happens, you should be knocking on the door of 4.5.

Yeah, this is a good plan also. I am doing a clinic this year with these goals in mind. Right now, it's all about the approach volley.

Funny thing about the effectiveness of using spin to get to net. The spin serve goes slower, and most players return it more defensively. Win win. The world seems to be filled with people who can block back hard balls or thrive on pace. I haven't met anyone yet who thrives on spin.

I'm starting to think doing the net work in the clinic coupled with working on returns and transitions in occasional private lessons might be a nice combination. I can work on service returns with my practice partner.

[Maui19]

Originally Posted by Torres

This isn't Cara Black and Liezel Huber. This is womens 3.5 recreational doubles. Whilst I don't disagree with the principle of what you're saying, I don't think what you're suggesting is realistic. Even at mens 4.5 level, the majority of players do not have a "absolutely bulletproof" S&V game, so I don't understand how you can say forget about working on groundstrokes when 3.5 womens doubles is largely played off the ground.

Okay, how about "bullet resistant."

The reason 3.5 tennis (not just womens') is played off the ground is because no one can serve and volley, and no one makes it a point to follow their aggressive shots into the net.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Maui19

Okay, how about "bullet resistant."

The reason 3.5 tennis (not just womens') is played off the ground is because no one can serve and volley, and no one makes it a point to follow their aggressive shots into the net.

I played a junkballer in dubs today. I had all kinds of problems handling her funky spins and suchlike.

The one thing that worked darn well was S&V. If someone has weirdo strokes (little slice angles and slice lobs), the one thing they probably can't do well and bust a passing shot. We won pretty much every point when I came to net.

Yeah. Gotta keep working on that S&V.

Cindy -- thrilled that she didn't miss a single approach volley