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10-31-2011, 03:28 PM
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#21 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: DE
Posts: 1,763
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Just to confuse the issue a little ... I have heard rumors that our section was going to begin counting mixed into the formula but that is purely speculation and I have not seen anything official about this. The USTA purposely keeps details about the formula it uses secret. Perhaps because it a proprietary formula and they worry about competitors, or perhaps they want to keep players from manipulating the system. In any event, there used to be considerably more official information on-line but I am seeing less and less official communication from the USTA about their system. Most of the information you get here is speculative at this point because they guard their formula very tightly and recently there have been some dramatic changes.
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"You should be playing linebacker, not singles." |
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10-31-2011, 04:56 PM
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#22 | ||
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On the deuce side, looking to come in
Posts: 779
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Quote:
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Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether a particular league counts. Either I'm gonna play in it (and play to the best of my ability)...or I'm sitting it out (usually for logistical or monetary reasons).
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A 3.5 masquerading around with a 4.0 mask on. |
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10-31-2011, 05:50 PM
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#23 |
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Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,653
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AQ, the singles league counts in NOVA, too. Makes sense, since we are in the same districts. Singles districts is in fact this weekend...I'm bummed that my team didn't make it.
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What would you do if you knew you could not fail? |
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10-31-2011, 07:21 PM
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#24 |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 686
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The USTA is about as non-standardized of a large organization that I have ever encountered.
Standardization would make the USTA a better organization IMO. What if one area played all matches with 8 game pro sets or banned self-rated players from playoffs? What is one area counts singles ratings to your NTRP and another doesn't? The fact that the USTA fails to have the same rules across the country is embarrassing IMO. I am glad my profession doesn't operate like the USTA.  Last edited by g4driver : 10-31-2011 at 07:56 PM. |
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10-31-2011, 07:57 PM
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#25 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NorCal Bay Area
Posts: 3,195
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Quote:
99% of players only ever play within their section. There is just a small % that get to mingle with players from another section at Nationals, or that live close enough to a neighboring section to play in two sections. So for the huge majority of players, what impact does it have on them if other sections have different rules / regulations? On the other hand, having different rules / season calendars / etc, allows each section to tailor things based on the weather / preferences / demographics of its residents. Kinda like every state can have different laws, tax codes, etc. |
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10-31-2011, 08:00 PM
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#26 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NorCal Bay Area
Posts: 3,195
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 Better take it back, or you'll lose your membership to this forum. |
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10-31-2011, 10:02 PM
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#27 | |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 686
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The USTA is a National Organization, not a state, or sectional or local. Standardization at the highest level makes all the rules the same for everyone. I am not advocating limiting local leagues from have rules and tailoring the game for the communities and players, but rather having the USTA have a minimum list of procedures that every section and local community must follow. I have played USTA in four states. The lack of standardization means for me: in one state my USTA singles matches count toward my NTRP, but in another state they don't. Why? I have no idea. Neither does anyone at the USTA it seems.  There is no good answer from the USTA. Someone just thought it isn't a good idea to count a player vs player match in SC, when they do in VA. This makes no sense whatsoever. But it is standard with the USTA. I fly airplanes for a living. I fly with pilots who are based in several different states. Thankfully we work off the same standards. The California pilots have a few more taxes taken out due for things the rest of our guys don't have to pay for, so that is similar to a local league rule I guess. When flying however, I know what to expect from the California pilot and he knows what to expect from me as an East Coast pilot. We might fly one flight together from Seattle to Denver and never see each other again. But during that one flight, I don't have to ask this guy anything about what he plans to do. I know what standard he will follow. Standardization puts everyone on the same sheet of music. In my line of work, that standardization makes flying the backbone of safety. How does that relate to tennis? Well, if the USTA makes a series of mistakes, there isn't any metal bent or lives lost, so what the USTA does or doesn't do will not affect the potential loss of life. But what the USTA could learn from organizations that do consistently apply the same rules around the country to their constituents is a much more informed group of players who know what to expect. Here's an example that really made me think the USTA's current system is broken: It's complete garbage that a player in one state can register for the USTA with a new name, and a new USTA number, one or two levels below his current NTRP, win matches on a local team, advance to the playoffs and continuing winning, then go to state and keep winning, before someone notices he really doens't play like a 4.0. Then when it is discovered he is a really a 5.0 with a different USTA number and another name, none of his wins are vacated, and the teams he beat keep the losses. National rules would fix this type of garbage. This is the kind of standard that is needed. This happend in Florida according to some of the posters on this forum. I have no knowledge of this, but if true, it is pathetic, the USTA didn't vacate this guys wins and ban him from USTA play for at least two years. As far as each local area tailoring tennis to their local communities, there nothing wrong with that at all. But how does having a standard applied consistently hurt anyone? If the USTA made a set of rules and regulation at the National level, and those rules were followed by each Section then by local communities, you would not have one state with ESRs, another without ESRs. You wouldn't have some states counting Single's leagues and other not. The grievance procedures would be the same everywhere. I've worked in the military and for two large profitable companies (one international and one national), and I never seen the lack of standardization that I see in the USTA. It's just my opinion that the USTA needs to apply some of the same major decisions nationally, not just by Section. ESRs? Why do some states use them and other don't? NTRP? Why do some states count this and others don't? Grievance procedures? Not totally familiar, but it seems this have so many flavors it they might give Baskin Robbins and good run for their money. I don't think I am asking for the moon. Do you think I am off-base with my thinking? Sorry for the rant in advance. Not sleepy tonight.  |
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10-31-2011, 10:11 PM
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#28 |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 686
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Orange Power, I don't manage my rating either. I play the best I can play in practice and in matches. If I'm bumped, great, if I'm not bumped, great.
Tennis has many options regardless of a rating. It's nice to have options. Maybe it's the fact that I've been flying for 20+ years and like to know the rules. |
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11-01-2011, 05:10 AM
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#29 |
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G.O.A.T.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 14,191
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USTA does have national standards for league play. They are lengthy and involved, IMHO.
Why do we need more, exactly? Anyway, if someone is going to deliberately cheat (as in the example you gave of a player creating a new identity for league play), having more detailed national rules will make no difference.
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-- Random Error Generator, Version 4.0 -- Master Moonballer |
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11-01-2011, 05:17 AM
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#30 | |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 686
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I am speaking directly about governing rules of what counts toward NTRPs, penalties for known cheating like in the example I gave above. The USTA is certainly NOT standardized across the nation in these areas. How would you feel if your team had lost a match before you got to Nationals by one court, and the person who beat you was really a 4.5? So you as the Captain file a grievance, but the Sectional USTA doesn't vacate the wins of the cheating player, and their team still went to Nationals and your team didn't. That is the type of standardization that could easily be solved with a National Standard. Last edited by g4driver : 11-01-2011 at 05:22 AM. |
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11-01-2011, 05:33 AM
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#31 | |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 552
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11-01-2011, 06:15 AM
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#32 |
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Professional
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 931
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The different local leagues and calendars are exactly why different sections handle NTRP calculations differently. For example, ESRs are only necessary if you start a league that has a championship in the next year before that year's ratings come out. So if you have a "fall" adult league in 2011 that feeds into the 2012 nationals, you need an ESR.
Some of the other stuff makes no sense to me, but there is logic behind those decisions... |
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11-01-2011, 07:13 AM
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#33 |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 686
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Thanks kylebaredrick. I didn't know that. It makes sense.
Since the ratings are coming out soon, I wanted to use the ESRs to see how many players the team will lose, and options for the those players getting bumped. Getting bumped on 3 Dec 10, and trying to find a new team in less than 30 days sucked for my older guys last year. Last year the ratings came out so late in Dec guys had less than 30 days before the new spring team starting registering. It's also useful for a team that loses two-three players via bumps as it's nice to know if you can find two to three guys to step in. As a Captain, it sucks to lose your best singles player and best doubles players. The guys who don't play as much see it as a chance to play more USTA matches. These are same guys who only play during a league match, never a drill or practice to actually improve. I see it as a great way to lose more matches next year since these guys don't practice, if the Captain can't replace his best players. I don't Captain a team so two or three of my weakest players can play more USTA matches if the strongest guys get bumped.  Shocking I know. The best players practice on their own, they are steady and win more. Amazing how that works. Last edited by g4driver : 11-01-2011 at 07:16 AM. |
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11-01-2011, 07:20 AM
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#34 | |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 686
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Quote:
 You aren't paying very close attention. |
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11-01-2011, 08:20 AM
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#35 |
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Professional
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 931
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We see the same thing with combo here (Norcal). Players self-rate for the fall combo season and dominate. Since combo doesn't count towards ratings, they dominate again in the adult league the following spring. They then get a second round of domination at combo since it take place before the new ratings are published.
I'd really like to see all USTA matches used in the NTRP calculations (except maybe mixed since it has a different dynamic) to limit the ability of captains (I blame them more than the players) to bring in ringers and use them for multiple years. |
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11-01-2011, 10:14 AM
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#36 | |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NorCal Bay Area
Posts: 3,195
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Quote:
And thanks for your detailed response re the standardization. I get your points. I just think that you're in the small minority of people that play across sections and so are impacted by the lack of standardization. Most people play completely within a section, and so what other sections do is of no relevance. I still think the pros of tailoring things to the needs of every section far outweigh the cons of any confusion caused by lack of standards. Your personal example as a pilot is not quite analogous; obviously pilots from various areas interact a lot and need to have common standards. Players from different sections typically don't interact. |
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11-01-2011, 10:35 AM
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#37 |
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 686
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OrangePower, can you understand why our State not counting Single's matches toward an NTRP could affect others playing in our state, but it might not affect you or Hawaii?
The self-rated 3.5 would have to make a choice. Would he be playing 4.0 if this affected his NTRP? A National Standard doesn't hurt you and protects our area from people who do this. If this guy plays up and his matches count, he is bumped to 4.0. Right now, he can play 4.0 Singles Spring and Summer and none of these matches count. How in the world does a National Standard affect NORCAL? SOCAL? Or another area of the country? Please enlighten me as I am completely baffled. National standards don't add any restrictions to a local area tailoring their local needs in any manner. What is does do is put everyone on the same sheet of music. My example is to show how standardization works. When you've never seen an organization that uses a system with standards it much harder to see how jacked up the USTA is regarding grievances, and what counts vs what doesn't count in your NTRP. A National Standard would have zero affect on your local area, other than possible stopping some sandbagging. The TSA is a another example of a non-standardized organization. Crewmembers can carry coffee through in every city but Orlando. It has nothing to do with security, but the Orlando TSA doesn't like it, so the local TSA makes crew put coffee in a bag then walk through the scanners. We still have coffee, but the TSA feels better because they made us put the coffee in a paper bag. Security Theater. But no purpose whatsoever. It doesn't really affect anyone, but it's a rule that someone came up with just because. Last edited by g4driver : 11-01-2011 at 10:38 AM. |
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11-01-2011, 12:36 PM
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#38 |
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Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NorCal Bay Area
Posts: 3,195
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^^^^
I'm not sure I completely follow what you're saying. It seems your grievance is that your section does not count Single's league matches towards NTRP, and you want a national rule to force all sections to count all leagues towards NTRP. How does that affect me in Norcal? Well, mabe in Norcal we don't want Mixed results to count for NTRP, because over here we don't believe Mixed is real tennis? Just kidding... kinda... point is, if there was a national rule such as you suggest, it has implications on other sections also. Ok, so you might say, allow Norcal 'override' that rule, if we here feel a particular league shouldn't count. To which I say, well, if you in (whereever you are) feel Singles league should count, then why don't you and all the others who feel the same way just pressure your specific section to make it count? On a different note, and about your concern that a self-rated 3.5 could just play 4.0 singles forever without ever getting bumped up... what do you care? There is always going to be a small percentage of sandbagger players who get their kicks out of beating weaker players, and they are always going to find a way to bend the rules to achieve their sandbagging dreams. Just accept it and move on. Most of your matches are going to be competitive and fun, and that's really the only point of NTRP. |
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11-01-2011, 12:57 PM
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#39 | ||
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Semi-Pro
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On the deuce side, looking to come in
Posts: 779
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Quote:
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I can see a bit of g4's troubles with the lack of similarity across the various Sections. I, too, am probably of the "make it the same" everywhere camp...but realistically understand that differences do (and probably should) exist. I mean, it is called the National Tennis Rating Program. I never used to understand ESRs but given the vastly different playing climates (both natural and man-made) that exist across the country, I can roll with the idea of "seasons" that cross the calendar divide. It's the abuses of said system, though, that I think are what rankles people most. But bottomline, I think it does what it's supposed to do -- give similarly rated players a competitive match. And I think that remarkable given the number and skill-level ranges of players involved. Just my $1. Inflation, ya know. All that said, I'm awaiting the YER as well. They come out around the end of Nov (as best I can recall) and it's always a mad scramble to re/assemble a Winter Mixed Team that begins the first week of January. And I'll venture this, regardless of what happens to me, I doubt the folks I lost to, in the leagues that count  ...will remain 3.5s.
__________________
A 3.5 masquerading around with a 4.0 mask on. |
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11-01-2011, 01:38 PM
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#40 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 154
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