Video for tennis dads.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

You nailed it right on the head. It really angers me. A hard working girl, built nicely for tennis, putting in the time, competing.

And very likely to run straight into a brick wall some day because her coach at age 8-9 did not take the time to fix her grip.

Yea, but if it was fixed she would lose matches in the 12's.

My guess is, and this is being optimistic, that they work on it in practice and it's just not match ready, yet.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by andfor

Yea, but if it was fixed she would lose matches in the 12's.

My guess is, and this is being optimistic, that they work on it in practice and it's just not match ready, yet.

I hope you are right, but highly doubt it. She has been using that grip a long time, won in the 10s and now the 12s. Sadly once they start winning with grips like that most coaches do not have the guts to change them, or the parents resist. Rick Macci always says the biggest single dead ender in junior tennis is an extreme grip that wins in 10-14s, then gets crushed in 16-18s. I think he would cry if he saw her grip.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

By the way, here is the girl that beat her at the Herr yesterday. Check out the grip on the forehand.

http://www.vcstar.com/photos/galleri...rnament/10289/

I said it earlier and I'll say it again...OUCHIE!

[rdis10093]

it would be so hard to hit on the run with that grip.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

I hope you are right, but highly doubt it. She has been using that grip a long time, won in the 10s and now the 12s. Sadly once they start winning with grips like that most coaches do not have the guts to change them, or the parents resist. Rick Macci always says the biggest single dead ender in junior tennis is an extreme grip that wins in 10-14s, then gets crushed in 16-18s. I think he would cry if he saw her grip.

I should have said "overly optimistic". I like you hope they fix it soon. It's really not that hard to gradually get her moved to the proper grip. As much as they hit it could be done in 1-3 months, easy. As many tournaments/matches as she's playing, it (Dad) likely won't allow for losses short-term for improvement long-term.

Outcome oriented focus versus process oriented focus. Many folks just don't get it.

[tacoben]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

By the way, here is the girl that beat her at the Herr yesterday. Check out the grip on the forehand. I know she is having success right now in the 12s.....but anyone think that grip will maximize her long term chances of success? Sure some pros even hit with different grips, but to me you are better off stacking the odds and going with a more traditional grip.

http://www.vcstar.com/photos/galleri...rnament/10289/

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...:0&tx=38&ty=37

Congratulations to her as I see she made it to the finals.

The other girl in the finals is one awesome player, the likes of which I've never seen before. I had an opportunity to watch her onetime at a local NorCal section tourney. She has a very aggressive game...the one time I watched her, she almost never played past the baseline but inside and taking the ball early. I predict the outcome in the latter's favor.

[Number1Coach]

Originally Posted by andfor

I should have said "overly optimistic". I like you hope they fix it soon. It's really not that hard to gradually get her moved to the proper grip. As much as they hit it could be done in 1-3 months, easy. As many tournaments/matches as she's playing, it (Dad) likely won't allow for losses short-term for improvement long-term.

Outcome oriented focus versus process oriented focus. Many folks just don't get it.

I agree many folks don't get it !

[jigglypuff]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

By the way, here is the girl that beat her at the Herr yesterday. Check out the grip on the forehand. I know she is having success right now in the 12s.....but anyone think that grip will maximize her long term chances of success? Sure some pros even hit with different grips, but to me you are better off stacking the odds and going with a more traditional grip.

http://www.vcstar.com/photos/galleri...rnament/10289/

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...:0&tx=38&ty=37

She's been doing very well in the 14s too. Looks like she just aged out during this tournament.

[rptennis]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

By the way, here is the girl that beat her at the Herr yesterday. Check out the grip on the forehand. I know she is having success right now in the 12s.....but anyone think that grip will maximize her long term chances of success? Sure some pros even hit with different grips, but to me you are better off stacking the odds and going with a more traditional grip.

http://www.vcstar.com/photos/galleri...rnament/10289/

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...:0&tx=38&ty=37

TCF

To answer your question, it will be hard for her to hit her FH with pace and to avoid injury as she moves into the older age divisions. Look at Sofia Kenin in the picture below her - same grip but completely different forehand mechanic. My daughter has the exact grip and if she wants to avoid future injuries, she needs to get her elbow behind the racquet at the contact point

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by rptennis

TCF

To answer your question, it will be hard for her to hit her FH with pace and to avoid injury as she moves into the older age divisions. Look at Sofia Kenin in the picture below her - same grip but completely different forehand mechanic. My daughter has the exact grip and if she wants to avoid future injuries, she needs to get her elbow behind the racquet at the contact point

Good point. When Macci had Sofia at 5-6 years old he was constantly switching her back to semi western from an extreme western. Lots of girls seem to let that grip slip around if you do not stay on them.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

Good point. When Macci had Sofia at 5-6 years old he was constantly switching her back to semi western from an extreme western. Lots of girls seem to let that grip slip around if you do not stay on them.

Little boys also go to the extreme western. It's easy when you're that little to use that grip to hit balls above your head. That's where many balls end up when your under 4 foot tall. Proper, technique, footwork and strike point are necessary at that age and small size to prevent the ball from bouncing over their head. It can be done, just takes patience and practice.

[Mikeadelic]

The dad is definitely a nuisance. That's why as a coach, you have to enter a psychological contract with the parents from the very beginning and let them know that when the kid gets on your court, the parents must SHUT IT. That's how I handle my students & their parents, and it's been smooth sailing so far.

As for the comments screaming "abuse", the kid is a trooper, she can probably handle it. How her dad treats her may not work on other kids who have a softer personality, but as long as she's tough enough to handle it, I wouldn't worry too much. In fact, a kid who talks back like that might even need a parent who is tough to keep her grounded as opposed to letting her go wild.

On the other hand -- as a parent, if you find yourself having to scream at your kid to do something right... it is 100% your fault, not the kid's. You either 1) don't have the coaching ability to fix the kid's problems or 2) never raised the kid right to be easily coached / motivated. There's not a single kid who was born hating tennis. Kids respond to their environment - and parents play a critical role in giving the kid either a reason to love or to hate the sport.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by Mikeadelic

The dad is definitely a nuisance. That's why as a coach, you have to enter a psychological contract with the parents from the very beginning and let them know that when the kid gets on your court, the parents must SHUT IT. That's how I handle my students & their parents, and it's been smooth sailing so far.

As for the comments screaming "abuse", the kid is a trooper, she can probably handle it. How her dad treats her may not work on other kids who have a softer personality, but as long as she's tough enough to handle it, I wouldn't worry too much. In fact, a kid who talks back like that might even need a parent who is tough to keep her grounded as opposed to letting her go wild.

On the other hand -- as a parent, if you find yourself having to scream at your kid to do something right... it is 100% your fault, not the kid's. You either 1) don't have the coaching ability to fix the kid's problems or 2) never raised the kid right to be easily coached / motivated. There's not a single kid who was born hating tennis. Kids respond to their environment - and parents play a critical role in giving the kid either a reason to love or to hate the sport.

Good stuff. I maintain though that we have no idea what happens when the camera is off. She may talk back a little to what he is doing on camera. Off camera he could be a real nut and she is helpless.

Not many dads would allow even that stuff on You Tube, saying "waste of time", "looks like you don't even want to try". If he does that on camera, who knows if/how brutal he is off camera.

My girl is a smart mouth and tough. But I would never go there with some of the stuff he says. There are less personal ways to handle a kid with a chip on their shoulder. I would rather see her run a lap then hear the verbal shots at her.

[Mikeadelic]

Originally Posted by TennisCoachFLA

Good stuff. I maintain though that we have no idea what happens when the camera is off. She may talk back a little to what he is doing on camera. Off camera he could be a real nut and she is helpless.

Not many dads would allow even that stuff on You Tube, saying "waste of time", "looks like you don't even want to try". If he does that on camera, who knows if/how brutal he is off camera.

My girl is a smart mouth and tough. But I would never go there with some of the stuff he says. There are less personal ways to handle a kid with a chip on their shoulder. I would rather see her run a lap then hear the verbal shots at her.

Absolutely no disagreement here. To clarify, me saying she can handle it definitely does not mean I condone it. I personally would never do this to anybody's kid, let alone my own when I end up having kids someday.

I'm thinking this dad is probably so unaware of his own obnoxiousness that he acts the same way off-camera as on. That's why he wouldn't even think about posting something like this on the tube. But then again I'm just taking a wild guess so who knows.

Bottom line is kids don't need this kind of upbringing. If parents would crack open any youth coaching book, the first chapter would be on how to motivate your kid without falling into abusiveness. The number of parents out there who don't even know such basic knowledge appalls me. People would read books to learn math, science, language, or tennis strokes, but don't ever bother to look up a book on parenting.

I see too many sports parents who scream and put down their kids and for what? Chasing a bunch of ranking points in the hopes that MAYBE their kid can crack into a D1 school, let alone the pro tour? Then when the kid washes out, not only do they not have any passion left for a great sport, but they grow up into a complete punk as a person.

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by Mikeadelic

Absolutely no disagreement here. To clarify, me saying she can handle it definitely does not mean I condone it. I personally would never do this to anybody's kid, let alone my own when I end up having kids someday.

I'm thinking this dad is probably so unaware of his own obnoxiousness that he acts the same way off-camera as on. That's why he wouldn't even think about posting something like this on the tube. But then again I'm just taking a wild guess so who knows.

Bottom line is kids don't need this kind of upbringing. If parents would crack open any youth coaching book, the first chapter would be on how to motivate your kid without falling into abusiveness. The number of parents out there who don't even know such basic knowledge appalls me. People would read books to learn math, science, language, or tennis strokes, but don't ever bother to look up a book on parenting.

I see too many sports parents who scream and put down their kids and for what? Chasing a bunch of ranking points in the hopes that MAYBE their kid can crack into a D1 school, let alone the pro tour? Then when the kid washes out, not only do they not have any passion left for a great sport, but they grow up into a complete punk as a person.

Agreed. His issue was that she was not getting to the balls. I would have gone with more kidding around to motivate. "Ut oh, that court is sticking to your feet!" or "get to the next 10 balls and I will run a lap".

If you are going to meddle with the coaching, at least do it in a light hearted fashion. At age 14, maybe he could be a little more blunt. At age 9, keep it light.

[Number1Coach]

I believe he was to easy with her , if she is not getting to the ball time to run lines!!

You can tell them to move their feet or just make them run lines and it happens on it's own!

[TennisCoachFLA]

Originally Posted by tacoben

Congratulations to her as I see she made it to the finals.

The other girl in the finals is one awesome player, the likes of which I've never seen before. I had an opportunity to watch her onetime at a local NorCal section tourney. She has a very aggressive game...the one time I watched her, she almost never played past the baseline but inside and taking the ball early. I predict the outcome in the latter's favor.

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&c...1t:429,r:5,s:0

She won the 12s. Now lets hope some coach has the guts to change her grip. Someone should send her coach this from Robert Lansdorp:

"The foundation of the forehand is the grip. One of the biggest problems in American junior tennis is the poor foundation so many young players have because of their extreme grips.

Under the handle, extreme western grips are incredibly common in high level junior tennis. Kids have great success early in their careers because they can hit topspin and get a lot of balls in play. If the ball is high and not too fast, these kids actually look pretty good.

The limitations don't show up until later, in the older age divisions or when a good young player first tests himself in professional tennis. Now these same kids suddenly don't look so great. They have severe problems handling the pace in the pro game, especially when the ball is low and skidding.

But nobody talks about these problems. Kids hold the rackets with the extreme grip and think it's alright. Nobody stands up and says that teaching extreme western grips are actually ruining these kids.

Nobody explains to the parents that if you take your 8-year old to a coach who let's the kid hit with an extreme grip, you're already up the creek - you just won't know it for another 8 years. This is what I call the disaster of teaching methods in American junior tennis."

[TennisCoachFLA]

Zoo Tennis posted a video of this kid winning the Herr. This is my huge pet peeve with rushing into early tournaments. And whoever is coaching her should be jailed. Not a chance in the world she does not hit a brick wall spinning that forehand grip around to that extreme. Zero power and court penetration. Yet trophies in the 10s-12s.

Poster child for poor coaching, tournaments before the strokes are ingrained properly, and celebrating early success. Sad, she is working hard and has the body type that could have been a great player.

The forehands starting at the 40 second mark make me want to drive to their house and pay them to let me fix her dang grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=xgd3HP-ixtc

[Ash_Smith]

The really sad thing TCF, is that we know the coach will say "oh, but this way she will have success now and then we will change it later when we need to"

Those of us with any knowledge now that a)this is damn hard to change the later it goes on and b)there's no reason not to have "correct" technique in the first place as you can still be successful in younger age groups.

This video of Richard Gasquet from the '99 Petit As in Tarbes shows how similar his technique was at 11 to now. You see the same with Rafa, Henin etc. At 11-12 their technique is already formed, barring minor changes and tweaks as they grow, but the basic shapes are the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoPFV...eature=related

The only player I know who made wholesale changes to technique later in their career was Juan Carlos Ferrero who totally reworked his serve at age 20.

I'll quite happily fly out if they'd like the help (my expenses aren't too high!)

Cheers

[gully]

^^^^^
Wouldn't Gasquet have been 15 or so in '99?