
Register  FAQ  Members List  Calendar  Search  Today's Posts  Mark Forums Read 

Thread Tools  Display Modes 
03142009, 07:05 PM  #21  
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Finding more boxscores.
SamprasBecker, 1997 Wimbledon quarterfinal, 61, 67 (5), 61, 64 Dallas Morning News: Quote:
The ATP has Sampras serving 19 service games, and Becker only 17. On that, they appear to be right. Following the score, it looks like Sampras must have served first in sets 1 and 3, because Becker served first in the tiebreak. I had no idea that could happen in a tennis match. AgassiStich, 1994 U.S. Open final, 61, 76, 75 Hartford Courant: Quote:
Before this, the '95 USO final had been the oldest boxscore I'd seen that said it included service in the Winners. 

03192009, 11:37 AM  #22 
New User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CA, USA
Posts: 96

Fine stats Kevin.
__________________
www.budcollinstennis.com 
Tennis old man 
View Public Profile 
Find More Posts by Tennis old man 
03262009, 07:38 PM  #23 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

More ATP stats that look good
Here are a few more matches for which the ATP stats  though they might contain minor errors  at least appear not to have counted aces and df's twice.
For BeckerSampras, 1996 ATP Championships, roundrobin, the ATP has each man winning 94 points, in line with my own count. For BeckerSampras, 1996 Eurocard final, the ATP has Becker leading in total points by 139137. I have the same numbers if I presume that Sampras held at love in the one game missing on my DVD. For SamprasAgassi, 1999 ATP Championships final, ESPN has Sampras winning 37 of 43 points on first serve late in the match. By my count, he went 7 for 7 on his remaining good first serves. So for the entire match he would have won 44 of 50, an exact match with the ATP. In the 90s, it's still pretty frequent that I see aces and df's counted twice at the ATP, but some matches don't appear to have that problem. Interesting that the two BeckerSampras matches are okay (since the stats for their 5set ATP Championships final are also correct, going by the New York Times). 
04062009, 07:22 PM  #24  
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Here's another that looks good.
KafelnikovKrajicek, 1999 USO quarterfinal, 76 (0), 76 (4), 36, 16, 76 (5) The Record (Bergen County, NJ): Quote:
New York Daily News: Quote:
The most recent match in which I know aces and df's were counted twice is still the 1999 W final. Last edited by krosero : 04062009 at 07:25 PM. 

04122009, 02:52 PM  #25  
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Another that looks good.
SamprasAgassi, 1999 Los Angeles final, 76, 76 CBS News online: Quote:


06012009, 08:30 PM  #26 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Two more that look good.
 For SamprasCalleri, 1999 U.S. Open, R32, a boxscore at ESPN.com put Sampras ahead in total points by 10392, same as the ATP. Sampras Calleri First serve 65% 47% Aces 17 17 Double faults 5 3 Winning first serve 58 of 66 39 of 44 Winning second serve 23 of 36 32 of 49 Winners 40 47 Unforced errors 22 24 Breakpoint conversions 1 of 3 0 of 3 Net approaches 57 of 88 10 of 15 Total points won 103 92  For SamprasMcEnroe, 1991 U.S. Pro Indoor semifinal, Moose Malloy counted the same number of points played as the ATP. 
06012009, 08:31 PM  #27 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Incorrect stats
In all these, the ATP appears to have counted aces and df's twice.
 For IvanisevicEdberg, 1992 Wimbledon quarterfinal, Moose Malloy counted 316 points in the match; the ATP has 315 if aces and df’s are subtracted once from their figures for Total Points Won.  For AgassiRafter, 1995 AO, R16, I have Agassi leading in total points by 8253, and so does the ATP if aces and df’s are subtracted once.  For PhilippoussisSampras, 1996 Australian Open, R32, I have Philippoussis leading in total points by 119109, and so does the ATP if they don’t count their aces and df’s twice.  For KafelnikovSampras, 1996 Roland Garros SF, I have Kafelnikov leading in total points by 10571, and so does the ATP if they don’t count their aces and df’s twice – but note that they have two fewer Kafelnikov aces and two fewer Sampras doublefaults than I do.  For WashingtonRadulescu, 1996 Wimbledon quarterfinal, the Boston Globe has Washington leading in total points by 185182, and so does the ATP if aces and df’s are subtracted once.  For RafterRusedski, 1997 USO final, a boxscore in the Hartford Courant has Rafter leading in total points by 127106; the ATP has the same if their aces and df’s are subtracted once. Rafter Rusedski Firstserve pct. 62 60 Winners 49 31 Aces 7 9 Unforced errors 23 26 Double faults 6 4 Breakpoint conv. 617 39 Pct. 1stserve pts 82 63 Net approaches 6895 54100 Pct. 2ndserve pts 46 51 Total points won 127 106  For PhilippoussisMoya, 1998 U.S. Open semifinal, the New York Times has Philippoussis winning 63 of 74 points on first serve. The ATP has 83 of 94, which looks as if they counted nearly all of Mark’s aces twice (the Times and the ATP agree that he had 21 aces).  For RafterSampras, 1998 USO semifinal, I have Rafter leading in overall points by 152138. The ATP has Rafter leading by 153135, if the aces and df’s are subtracted once. 
06012009, 08:32 PM  #28 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

And here's an example of how widespread the problem of counting aces and df's twice might be in matches from the 1990s.
 At the 1994 AO, ESPN had Todd Martin winning 172 of 451 points on his opponents’ first serves through the semifinals. The ATP has him winning 172 of 489, which works out exactly if they counted his opponents' 38 aces twice. Last edited by krosero : 06012009 at 08:45 PM. 
08312009, 12:23 PM  #29  
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Quote:
CBS has got each player winning 178 points late in the match, so I counted forward and got 404 points in total, with Edberg leading 209195. And the break points agree completely with the ATP. 

12172011, 06:44 PM  #30 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Some ATP stats from the 90s that look good
 For SamprasEdberg, 1994 Indian Wells semifinal, the ATP stats are confirmed by Moose Malloy’s own count of firstserve percentages, success on first and second serve, aces, doublefaults and break points.
 For MusterBecker, 1995 Monte Carlo final, Moose counted 313 points, just two more than the ATP has. And for each player he counted as many successful first serves as the ATP did. 
12172011, 06:49 PM  #31 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Incorrect stats
In all of these matches the ATP has counted aces and doublefaults twice.
 For SamprasStich, 1992 Wimbledon quarterfinal, ABMK has Sampras leading 8362 in total points. The ATP would have 8461 if they subtracted aces and df’s once.  For LendlConnors, 1992 USO, R64, I have Lendl leading in total points by 11180, which is what the ATP would have they subtracted aces and df’s once from their stats.  For EdbergKrajicek, 1992 USO, R16, the New York Times had Edberg leading 181169 in total points. The ATP figures drop to 179167 (from a tie of 193193) if the ATP’s aces and doublefaults are subtracted once. Note also that the Times had Edberg serving 13 doublefaults (compared to the ATP’s 11) and Krajicek serving 13 aces (compared to the ATP’s 15).  For SamprasBecker, 1993 Wimbledon semifinal, the ATP has Sampras leading 130113 in total points, which comes out to 10793 if the aces and doublefaults are subtracted once. SLICE SERVE ACE has Sampras leading 10792.  For SamprasCourier, 1993 Wimbledon final, the ATP has Sampras leading 163135 in total points, but if aces and doublefaults are subtracted once the lead is 135120, right in line with SLICE SERVE ACE's count.  For SamprasPioline, 1993 U.S. Open final, a boxscore in the Baltimore Sun has Sampras leading in total points by 9775, which is what the ATP would have if they subtracted aces and df’s once.  For YzagaSampras, 1994 U.S. Open, R16, a boxscore in the Orlando Sentinel has Yzaga leading 166161 in total points, same as the ATP if the aces and df's are subtracted once.  For BeckerAgassi, 1995 Wimbledon SF, I have Becker leading 15147 in total points, same as the ATP if aces and df’s are subtracted once.  For SamprasBecker, 1995 W final, I have Sampras leading 138108 in total points, same as the ATP if their aces and doubles are subtracted once. Also, the ATP gave Becker 16 df’s, one more than he had in my count and in the Washington Post’s.  For KrajicekSampras, 1996 Wimbledon quarterfinal, Wimbledon.org has Krajicek leading 116101 in total points. The ATP has 11499 if aces and df’s are subtracted once. Also, the ATP reports that Krajicek faced 6 break points, but the New York Times reported 7 (confirmed in my own count).  For SamprasChang, 1996 USO final, a boxscore in the Spartanburg Herald Journal has Sampras leading in total points by 9476, which the ATP also has if aces and doublefaults are subtracted once.  For SamprasHenman, 1998 Wimbledon semifinal, the ATP reports a total of 136 points served by Sampras, but SLICE SERVE ACE counted only 114. The ATP has the same number if Sampras’ 15 aces and 7 df’s are subtracted once.  For SamprasIvanisevic, 1998 Wimbledon final, SLICE SERVE ACE reports 155 points served by Sampras, which is what the ATP would have if they subtracted Sampras’ 11 aces and 8 df’s once. 
12182011, 05:51 PM  #32  
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Quote:
The ATP lists only 26 doublefaults between the two players, when they actually served 37 doublefaults. Norman is given only 17 aces, when he actually had 25. But the ATP boxscore does credit Goran with his full 46 aces! 46 was once an ace record. So perhaps the number was simply too famous not to list correctly. http://www.atpworldtour.com/Share/Ma...997&r=2&p=N250 

12182011, 05:57 PM  #33 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Other problems
 For SamprasBecker, 1997 Wimbledon quarterfinal, the ATP puts Sampras at 17 aces, 4 df’s and 4 break points faced. The Dallas Morning News and NBC put him at 19 aces, 3 df’s and 3 break points faced. Moreover, NBC reports 209 points played in the match; the Dallas Morning News has 211; the ATP has 240, which would come down to 211 if the aces and doublefaults were subtracted once.
 For KuertenNorman, 2000 French Open final, the ATP has Kuerten facing 16 break points; NBC has 14, and the official RG site has only 13.  For FedererRoddick, 2007 Masters Cup, ESPN had Federer serving at 85%, while the ATP has 82%.  For FedererNadal, 2007 Masters Cup semifinal, ESPN had Federer serving at 83% (40 successful first serves), while the ATP has 81% (39 first serves). ESPN had Nadal serving at 67%, while the ATP has 71%. 
12192011, 02:57 AM  #34 
Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Winesburg, Ohio
Posts: 3,935

Since your OP, has the ATP corrected at least some of your earlier grievances?
__________________
"I can cry like Roger, it’s just a shame I can’t play like him."  Andy Murray 
12192011, 03:08 AM  #35  
SemiPro
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 506

Quote:
They have Antwerp 1998 (Belgium mid ****in February) as Outdoor event.. i sent them many emalis to correct that and to make it Indoor Hard (with link to tournament's page on ITF) but then they must correct IndoorOutdoor matches ratio for 32 players in the draw and they just don't want to do that. Its better to stay wrong than to work and on it and make it true 

Nadal_Power 
View Public Profile 
Find More Posts by Nadal_Power 
12192011, 12:54 PM  #36 
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454


12192011, 12:56 PM  #37  
Legend
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,454

Quote:


12192011, 01:37 PM  #38 
SemiPro
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 506


Nadal_Power 
View Public Profile 
Find More Posts by Nadal_Power 
01042013, 08:06 AM  #39 
SemiPro
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 506

Wrong stats for 1993 Australian Open final too!
There was 201 points, not 229. Jim won 115 and Stefan 86 Courier served 56/96, and Stefan 58/105 Courier was 44/56 on first and 22/40 on second serve. Stefan was 38/58 on first and 18/47 on second serve Jim was 49/105 on return, Stefan 30/96 
Nadal_Power 
View Public Profile 
Find More Posts by Nadal_Power 
01042013, 08:32 AM  #40 
Talk Tennis Guru
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cwmbran, Wales
Posts: 24,203

Plenty of matches on the ATP website have incorrect scores. The ITF website isn't perfect in this regard either, but it's much more accurate than the ATP's on the whole.
Last edited by Mustard : 01042013 at 08:34 AM. 

Thread Tools  
Display Modes  

