Looking for Help Choosing a Camera

[sabala]

Casio is coming out with the ZR200 in April of this year. It will have the manual shutter speed like the FH100. Also 240 fps is a bit improved at 512 x 384. It will be around 380.00

For camcorders I came across the Sanyo VPC-SH1. It is capable of 240 fps and 600 fps for analysis. Online I see it's around a few hundred bucks.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by sabala

Casio is coming out with the ZR200 in April of this year. It will have the manual shutter speed like the FH100. Also 240 fps is a bit improved at 512 x 384. It will be around 380.00

For camcorders I came across the Sanyo VPC-SH1. It is capable of 240 fps and 600 fps for analysis. Online I see it's around a few hundred bucks.

CORRECTION - the ZR200 may not have MANUAL shutter speed control in high speed video - see reply #28.

The new Casio ZR200 probably does have MANUAL shutter speed control according to this video. Great news!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpi75AJIHzE

I am a little uncertain when interpreting the Casio spec sheet regarding shutter speed and camera operation modes, stills & video, etc. Click ZR200 & FH100 and “compare” on the Casio site below. Look at the "Shutter Type" spec.

http://www.casio-intl.com/dc/compare/spec/result/

I believe that the fastest shutter speed for the ZR200 is 1/2000 sec. It should do a very good job showing most of a tennis stroke but there will be some motion blur especially for the highest tennis stroke velocities.

[Motion blur = object velocity X shutter speed. (for an object going across the frame)]

For the FH100 the fastest shutter speed is 1/40,000sec and therefore motion blur is negligible for the highest tennis stroke motions (if you have enough light). I use shutter speed 1/10,000s most often.

BTW. For indoor courts the lighting level is only about 1/100th of the lighting level of direct sunlight outdoors. The FH100 has to use a slow shutter speed ~1/1,000s to collect enough photons for useable video. You can't use fast shutter speeds indoors with current technology and there's motion blur.

How long can the Sanyo camera record? Please post the link with the info.


FYI - Some motion blur calculations, reply #614.
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/...9#entry3281969

[sabala]

Sanyo VPC-SH1 recording times listed here -

http://sanyo.com/xacti/english/produ..._sh1/spec.html



Yeah, too bad about the ZR 200 shutter speed, I found another spec page here listing only 1/2000 shutter speed. Compare to the FH100 spec page here showing up to 1/40,000 shutter speed. Why introduce a great feature then remove it??

Also coming out this year at the end of March is the Kodak Playful Zi12. For only 200 bucks it looks to have some great features for both recording matches and doing high speed analysis at 120/240 fps. Don't know what recording times are yet though...

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by sabala

Sanyo VPC-SH1 recording times listed here -

http://sanyo.com/xacti/english/produ..._sh1/spec.html

.................................................. ....... Why introduce a great feature then remove it??

Also coming out this year at the end of March is the Kodak Playful Zi12. For only 200 bucks it looks to have some great features for both recording matches and doing high speed analysis at 120/240 fps. Don't know what recording times are yet though...

The VPC-SH1 Sanyo camera specs - the last foot note - says

“The maximum recording time for one video clip in [Web-SHR] and [Web-UHR] modes is approximately 10 seconds (with no sound recording).”

That is limiting and would not work well, for example, if you wanted to video your own serve and had nobody to operate the camera. (Does it have a remote trigger?) Also, to do stroke analysis from some distance you need a zoom lens, 'point & shoot' camera type optics would be very limiting. That Sanyo does have a very fast video shutter speed of 1/10,000s.

FYI - I believe that the new Nikon J1 & V1 also have very short maximum recording times, 5 seconds, for their high speed video modes. Please double check that spec.

The high performance of the Casio FH100 camera must not have resulted in sales as most buyers probably don’t appreciate high speed video performance features beyond frame rate, fps.

In addition to resolution, frame rate and shutter speed you should check the following high speed video specs and performance characteristics as they may be important for your application:

1) Maximum recording time after triggering.
2) Can it be remotely triggered? (My FH100 can't be but my Aiptek 60fps can be.)
3) How large the LCD screen is and how bright? - especially visibility in sunlight.
4) How well the camera can do frame-by-frame stop action on the camera? (add See Samsung TL350 (2010) forum comments http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=36079796 )
5) Battery life.
6) Lens - A zoom lens with wide angle to telephoto is best.
7) Low light sensitivity.
8 Jello Effect distortions that, under your conditions, may affect the spatial accuracy of high speed video images. This information is difficult to find and never advertized or in spec sheets. I have simulated some of the video set ups and measured the distortions to see if errors are negligible or have to corrected for. Not difficult to do.

[maxpotapov]

Nikon 1 System V1 / J1
640 x 240/400 fps (plays at 30p/29.97 fps)
320 x 120/1,200 fps (plays at 30p/29.97 fps)

I just noticed previous post mentioning those, dpreview does not provide details on video recording time in high speed mode, unless I missed smth.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by maxpotapov

Nikon 1 System V1 / J1
640 x 240/400 fps (plays at 30p/29.97 fps)
320 x 120/1,200 fps (plays at 30p/29.97 fps)

I just noticed previous post mentioning those, dpreview does not provide details on video recording time in high speed mode, unless I missed smth.

I believe that those Nikon models only record HSV for a few seconds -~5 sec - but I don't own the camera so I'm not certain. See later replies of this Casio thread and confirm specs with an internet search.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=36835467

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/con...o-Features.htm

“…………..The first mode shoots at 400fps and stretches a roughly five-second clip into a slow motion clip of just over a minute. The second mode shoots at an even higher frame rate, 1200fps, and stretches a five-second clip into a slow-mo clip of three minutes, 20 seconds. Both modes are limited to the five-second recording length, and, remember, both capture very low-quality video.”

Check that show-stopper spec before buying Nikon V1 or J1 models for tennis stroke analysis. You can often download the complete user's manual from the manufacturer.

The new Casio ZR200 with manual shutter speed as fast as 1/2,000 s should do a very good job for tennis stroke analysis. CORRECTION - the ZR200 may not have MANUAL shutter speed control in high speed video - see reply #28.

[sabala]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

…………..

The new Casio ZR200 with manual shutter speed as fast as 1/2,000 s should do a very good job for tennis stroke analysis.

Unfortunately...it appears manual shutter speed is for photo only, not video. Check this review out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwC4sK89d68

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by sabala

Unfortunately...it appears manual shutter speed is for photo only, not video. Check this review out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwC4sK89d68

Thanks a lot for the link. That is too bad.

I'll have to correct some of my recent replies on the ZR200.

[SnoxicTennoxic]

Originally Posted by shanked_it

I like go pro helmet hero for versatility and viewing angle

I tried with the GoPro which I normally use for other things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...r3W7CFmU#t=97s

The angle is too wide for my liking, it's a preference thing. If the lowest part in the image would be half the distance from the baseline to the fence it would be better. Didn't play around much with the settings. Maybe you can set it up in a different spot, I pretty much have to attach to the fence.

What I did like was the red light which clearly signals when it's recording (compared to the compact camera I use instead).

[5263]

What would you consider a min frame rate for video?

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by 5263

What would you consider a min frame rate for video?

200 fps or more is a good rate for stroke analysis. The shutter speed should be fast to minimize motion blur so that the racket and ball can be located better.

60 fps with fast shutter speed can be a very useful compromise to video both the whole match and some stroke mechanics. (60p progressive and not 60i interlaced.)

At 240 fps, internal shoulder rotation - a very fast motion of the serve that occurs over about 0.03 seconds - takes just 7 frames. With 60fps you do not get enough frames to understand this motion.

(If you want to calculate the motion between frames and motion blur -
http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435 Reply #1. Also has information on the Jello Effect.)

[5263]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

200 fps or more is a good rate for stroke analysis. The shutter speed should be fast to minimize motion blur so that the racket and ball can be located better.

60 fps with fast shutter speed can be a very useful compromise to video both the whole match and some stroke mechanics. (60p progressive and not 60i interlaced.)

At 240 fps, internal shoulder rotation - a very fast motion of the serve that occurs over about 0.03 seconds - takes just 7 frames. With 60fps you do not get enough frames to understand this motion.

(If you want to calculate the motion between frames and motion blur -
http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435 Reply #1)

very helpful, thanks

[pdx_tennisplayer]

I borrowed this HD Tennis Camera, it works pretty good and I'm thinking of buying one for the summer.


http://hdtenniscamera.com

It hangs on the fence/curtain and has a wide angle lens to record the full court.

My teammate has one and it works great.

John (Portland, OR)

[onehandbh]

Originally Posted by pdx_tennisplayer

I borrowed this HD Tennis Camera, it works pretty good and I'm thinking of buying one for the summer.


http://hdtenniscamera.com

It hangs on the fence/curtain and has a wide angle lens to record the full court.

My teammate has one and it works great.

John (Portland, OR)

The camera itself only costs $90. They are charging $155 for the hanging
device. I think for $245 you would be better off buying a higher quality camera
instead.

For simple recordings you can just use your camera phone.
Here is a recording I did with my iphone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature..._JqmS3dI7-EeRw

[corbind]

Some nice info I his thread. Settling in for more responses...

[Chas Tennis]

CORRECTION 9/21/2012 - I just recorded some 120 fps & 240 fps videos and after recording normally for many seconds a 2Gb cheaper card seems to skip frames.

I have read several discussions of the speed requirements for SD cards. To be safe I'd always get exactly what the camera manufacturer recommends.

I am not that knowledgeable in digital technology but found something interesting for my high speed videos. It involves using cheap, slow 2GB SD cards to take and communicate high speed videos. Maybe these slow cards are OK for high speed video of short video clips.

If you want to communicate videos at low very cost and simply, for example, of many tennis strokes, I have found the following methods with limitations:

1) Attach to emails - my internet provider limits the attachments to total about 15 MB per email. It can be cumbersome to find each file and attach them as when I sent a team of tennis players their strokes.

2) Upload to video host site such as Youtube or Vimeo. However, these sites compress the video files farther for storage and the compression, I believe, interferes with proper stop action frame-by-frame analysis. On site, the best you can do is to press the play-pause button as fast as possible. Free Vimeo has a 500MB limit per week. Vimeo also has a $10?/month 'Pro' service that saves uncompressed files that can be downloaded and viewed in proper stop action.

3) Upload file to a drop box (any file type). I had used a site for up to 100MB original video file with no compression. You then send email to player who can download the complete file. Not sure of the status of the service now.

4) Cheap SD Cards. As another method of communicating videos, especially longer ones, I considered buying cheap SD cards as loaners. 2GB card cost about $5 with another $5 for shipping, maybe cheaper if you look. These cards are slow or unspecified. Also bought a cheap card reader as a loaner in necessary.

5) Others Methods? Any other suggestions for communicating at low cost and not requiring computer knowledge or computer set-up changes from those receiving the video files?

I tried my Class 2? and 4 cheaper 2 & 4 GB cards for recording high speed video of tennis strokes in a Casio FH100 camera. 240fps requires 50Mb/sec. Despite the slow card speed they have worked perfectly so far. According to most forum discussions on SD card speed requirements, the cards should probably have dropped frames so my recordings did not make sense. See CORRECTION above.

I started a thread on dpreview and got a very interesting reply that makes sense. It says that for short video clips there is a buffer in the camera that can relax the speed requirement from the card.

See especially 3rd reply.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=41196068

If true the video clip length is important and might vary considerably because of the buffer size in different cameras.

It was also pointed out in the dpreview thread that large, fast SD, 32GB, are now very reasonable in cost. Selected files could then be copied to the small SD cards for individual players. Copying requires an additional step and computer whereas the cheap SD card could just be handed to the player after the practice secession.

Any guinea pigs for some tennis stroke videos around Baltimore?

[Chas Tennis]

I have been looking for a website that lists high speed video cameras. This is the best that I have found so far, helpful to find cameras. I am not sure if it lists from all available cameras or only those sponsored in some way by retailers or manufacturers. You can select frame rate, camera type, etc.

http://snapsort.com/explore/best-com...-recent?page=2

The issue of MANUAL exposure control and AUTO exposure control has been discussed in this thread. MANUAL can produce the minimum motion blur that is desirable for sharp high speed videos of rackets, ball impacts, etc. I believe that only the discontinued Casio F1, FH20, FH25, and FH100 (2010) have been offered with full MANUAL. I don't believe that there are any new affordable HSV cameras are now offered with full MANUAL control, all are AUTO. Still, a $120 camera with AUTO & 240fps could show you a great deal about your tennis strokes.

[Chas Tennis]

I saw this today. Casio FH100s silver available from **** new, $349.

http://www.*********/ctg/Casio-High-...Cameras&_dmd=1

I have no knowledge of the supplier from Japan.

Stock of cameras? Poor man's high performance high speed video would be great if they started manufacturing the FH100 again..............

[vil]

Hey guys, I just purchased a little Gopro Hero2 and it's absolutely awesome.
It's small and comes with mounting gadgets. And of course it's all HD. Probably not as sophisticated as some above mentioned cameras but it's worth considering.

[vil]

Oh yeah, almost forgot, battery lasts 2.5 hrs nonstop recording and my xd card is 16G 4hrs HD recording. It cost here in Australia $399. I'm really happy with it. I just recorded 3 full sets without stopping. It has a fixed lens but very wide angle . I put it on a bracket on the fence right behind the baseline and it came quite good. I had a wall practice and it came up brilliant.