Foreign college thread in the college section

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by justinmadison

There are 263 NCAA DI men’s tennis programs. If they average 3 new players each year there are 789 spots. There are 25 blue-chip and 50 5 star players. That sounds pretty bleak for American tennis.

I guess if you count the top 25 programs that works out to 75 spots. If you go top 75 programs it would be 1 American and 2 foreign players for each school.

.....so if a 3 star American junior wants a shot at a D1 tennis spot, he/she has to PLAY QUALIFYING matches against foreign players to prove to college coaches that they deserve to be considered? Just a joke!!

......You know, blue-chip and 5 star TRN players are limited to 75 male or female junior tennis players each graduation year.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by tennis5

A dad said to me the other day, who played D1, that if he faced the same competition today, he is not sure he would get a spot.

This dad who did get a spot, years ago, has invested that love of tennis in his son.

Now, if the son doesn't get a spot,
will that junior then turn into a dad who then doesn't instill the love of tennis in his son
as he knows there are no spots for Americans?

It is a downward spiral for American tennis when you take away the opportunities.

Foreigners in American college tennis and the bizarre reductions that the USTA has coming up will be the nail in the coffin.

Very few dads who played D1 baseball, basketball, football, hockey, whatever a generation ago would be able to get a spot on a D1 roster today with their generation-ago skills.

This is not a situation unique to tennis.

And this does not mean there is a downward spiral in baseball, football etc.

Tennis players in the US have not been able to keep up with the state of the art in their sport as much as US athletes in other sports

[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by andfor

D1 tennis at the top schools and conferences, just like basketball baseball and football are for Bluechips and 5 stars. If the kid is good enough he won't have any problems. If he's relying in a legacy, good luck to him.

Why can't 3-4 stars play at those schools?

[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Very few dads who played D1 baseball, basketball, football, hockey, whatever a generation ago would be able to get a spot on a D1 roster today with their generation-ago skills.

This is not a situation unique to tennis.

And this does not mean there is a downward spiral in baseball, football etc.

Tennis players in the US have not been able to keep up with the state of the art in their sport as much as US athletes in other sports

According to you statement, who is at fault, the teaching pros of America?

[tball2day]

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[andfor]

Originally Posted by tball2day

Is that a serious question?

Just in case it is, they aren't good enough.

Often when it comes to winning at the top schools and confereces that's the case, foreigners or no foreigners.

There's a place in college tennis for junior players if they are open to more than a few select schools and tennis programs.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by Tennishacker

According to you statement, who is at fault, the teaching pros of America?

Lots of sports in the US have benefited, I think, from new waves of "hungry" classes of society taking part in the sport.

A list of the middleweight boxing champions in the mid-20th century reads almost like a list of immigrant waves into the country. Each new group...Irish, Italian, German, Jew.....was hungrier than the one before and fought its way to the top....and advanced the sport

Baseball used to be all white. Blacks' involvement brought the game to a new level. And what do we have today? A newer and hungrier group--Latinos--outshining both the whites and the blacks and moving the game to a new level.

These are generalizations, of course. There are still good white and black baseball players.

But I still think there is validity in the observation that new blood....mostly in the form of hungrier classes of society....moving into sports has been a key factor in promoting the advancement of skill levels in those sports.

For various reasons we have not seen this phenomenon in US tennis. At the same time, there has been significant global growth in the sport.....far outstripping that of baseball, football etc. I think these factors account for the stagnation (or decline) of US tennis relative to the level of play globally.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by 10ismom

.....so if a 3 star American junior wants a shot at a D1 tennis spot, he/she has to PLAY QUALIFYING matches against foreign players to prove to college coaches that they deserve to be considered? Just a joke!!

......You know, blue-chip and 5 star TRN players are limited to 75 male or female junior tennis players each graduation year.

Great point.....

In the winter Nationals, 16's,
a freshman beat a junior in the back draw. SF?
But, after that freshman, who I believe is a bit older, there are only 24 spots left in the blue chips.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Very few dads who played D1 baseball, basketball, football, hockey, whatever a generation ago would be able to get a spot on a D1 roster today with their generation-ago skills.

This is not a situation unique to tennis.

And this does not mean there is a downward spiral in baseball, football etc.

Tennis players in the US have not been able to keep up with the state of the art in their sport as much as US athletes in other sports

I am tired. My writing skills are going down here because everyone missed my point.

I am not talking legacy.

I am talking about continuing the love of a sport.

[tball2day]

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[TennisMaverick]

Originally Posted by donnymac10s

Points 1 and 2: I disagree. I don't believe that college coaches stereotype players based on nationality. The fact is that with a lot of tournaments being played, they form an opinion based on direct observation and conversation with people (other coaches) who are familiar with the players in question. Also, it's more expensive (and riskier) for a college coach to consider a foreigner. From my experience, this is usually last resort after all other suitable US candidates are reviewed and discarded. Regarding point #3: I agree - that's where things should be (and currently are) equalized. Not allow older foreigners to compete against HS graduates. Also, I believe that there are more foreigners in college tennis than other sports because college tennis is truly a global sport (unlike baseball, football or even basketball). If it's not soccer, foreigners don't usually care about other sports.

"I believe, wholeheartedly, that there are numbers of TALENTED, DRIVEN, HARD-WORKING American junior tennis players who want to play college tennis if they are given the opportunity." Help me understand this: are you saying that they must be given the opportunity AND THEN they will start working hard? Sounds a bit backwards to me...

Coaches choose players for what their perceived ability of the recruit's success will be at the collegiate level, irrespective of their junior ranking. That means that players with more than junior experience will have an advantage. That also means that bigger stronger players will have an advantage--the average pro tennis player is now 6'2". For whatever reason, the players competing at the Futures level who are bigger, are frequently non-American, for whatever reason. I can easily speculate, but that is another subject. However, that is a fact. They are also more disciplined, mature, and focused than most American players on the circuit, and many, have to win to earn money for their families back home to put food on the table. That's real, and much more real life than fulfilling the dream of being a "great" tennis player, which is usually the mindset of most American players on the circuit. Recruiting that player over an American junior, is a no brainer. When I was coaching DI, and I received the scouting reports, which were almost exclusively international players, the first thing that I would look at was height and weight. If the player was under 6'0", but over 5'10", I put him in the review pile. Any smaller, and his report went into the trash. Many coaches do that as well, which, is also another reason why international players get a better look.

Many academically inclined students take a "Gap Year", and do something before college. Princeton, actually has a Bridge Year Program. Why many American parents don't do this, IMPO, is illogical, especially since it is a known fact that many of the excesses and negatives associated with bad behavior on college campuses occurs due to the immaturity of incoming freshman, which are bad habits carried throughout their college careers. If I were still coaching college tennis, I would certainly recruit an American junior who took a gap year and played men's open and/or Futures events over the same ranked junior straight out of high school. That kid would be stronger, faster, accustomed to grown men as opponents, far more independent, disciplined, and focused, and less apt to follow the crowd, indulge in binge drinking, or rush a frat--something every coach abhors. I have recommended this to many of my players and advisees, and personally, had my own son follow said advice. That led to him getting Futures WCs, recruited to a ridiculous amount of colleges, attending the college of his choice, showered with money, and very mature and ready for his first day in class, without being neither academically--as a prep school kid he never went to bed before 1 AM--nor athletically burned-out, and he was not a high ranked junior, mostly because of his academic course load.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by tball2day

... I still dislike the idea that our 17-18 year old freshman go in along with the 20-21 year old foreign freshman who were able to play pro for a year or two. That's the thorn in my side.

If the foreign player is 20-21 and has been playing pro for a year or two, he will not be a freshman in eligibility. Neither would a domestic player who did the same thing for a year or two. This point has been made repeatedly in this thread.

This thread is just repeating the same statements, over and over, and a good bit of the reason is that people are not listening to the points being made.

[tball2day]

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[andfor]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

If the foreign player is 20-21 and has been playing pro for a year or two, he will not be a freshman in eligibility. Neither would a domestic player who did the same thing for a year or two. This point has been made repeatedly in this thread.

This thread is just repeating the same statements, over and over, and a good bit of the reason is that people are not listening to the points being made.

Could not agree more. I made the point a page or two ago, that it appears if someone is on the anti-foreign side of the argument they stop reading once they determine what they are reading is not in agreement with their position. It's the anti-foreign camp that seems to know the least about the rules.

Originally Posted by tball2day

Their wins are posted as "freshman xyz....." they are brought in as freshman, they are considered and compared to freshman in any write up.....they are freshman.

I believe they can come it at that age and still stay 4 years, and I thought that was suppose to change (this year maybe?) but it hasn't changed yet from what I have seen.

This has been reviewed many times. It does not matter what year it says the player is on the college team internet roster or in the program. What matters is when the player graduated H.S. From H.S. graduation time, in D1 tennis they have 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility. Also, the athlete has 4 years to complete H.S. from the time they enter their freshman year.
For D1 tennis the college eligibility clock starts 6 months from the time of H.S. graduation.

[tball2day]

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[andfor]

Originally Posted by tball2day

That's was assumptive (which is rampant on this forum lately) Actually, I am totally supportive of the foreign players and don't care if they take every spot in the college system. Whoever is the best earns it as far as I am concerned.

What you keep dodging by stating rules is clarifying that these weren't going into effect until 2012 as far as I know (and I may be wrong, but not evil, or argumentative and open to correction). Also foreigners don't get out of HS till later fron what I understand.

So today, there are players recruited from the US and are 17-18 and brought in with foreign freshman that are 18-24 months older. It happens in schools across the country - still. So throw your rules out there, but maybe looking at the situation still in play would be better.

Not sure why everyone on this forum is so angry but the tone has really turned. No wonder TCF only makes occasional visits.

Not angry just stating what I see since I've been on this and other topics of this matter since the beginning. The latest and only change I know of regarding age, and I could could be off, is the NCAA changed the sitting out period from one year to 6 months. I thought that went in effect last year. I've posted the NCAA rules here about 6 or 7 times. I don't claim to have them memorized but know them better than the average non-college tennis coach. I too am open to correction, clarification, education, etc.

BTW. Did not know I was being asked to clarify something so I'm certainly not dodging anything. Your statement about the age of incoming Americans vs. Foreigners according to others on the board is correct. This is another issue that's been addressed more than once. And one that been addressed at the D1 level by starting the eligibility clock 6 months from graduation.

Check out the NCAA rules when you can. If you can't find them and really want to look them over let me know.