We need to sort out this time wasting BS right now

[Bobby Jr]

I think they need first to stop the recent creep of receivers delaying the server as Nadal did untold in his match against Federer.

When they server is ready they should be able to serve within reason. It's silly for one player to be able to stuff around on his own serve, but for him to then disrupt the rhythm/flow of the server when he's receiving it bad form imo.

Making enforcing the time-clock mandatory for umpires whenever there is an obvious disparity between the speed of the players would seem a fair aim. Just how to do that is a difficult question which is probably the reason we rarely see the worst time wasters ever get warned.

[Polvorin]

Originally Posted by Bobby Jr

I think they need first to stop the recent creep of receivers delaying the server as Nadal did untold in his match against Federer.

When they server is ready they should be able to serve within reason. It's silly for one player to be able to stuff around on his own serve, but for him to then disrupt the rhythm/flow of the server when he's receiving it bad form imo.

Making enforcing the time-clock mandatory for umpires whenever there is an obvious disparity between the speed of the players would seem a fair aim. Just how to do that is a difficult question which is probably the reason we rarely see the worst time wasters ever get warned.

Yes, that is true, Nadal always uses time violations to throw Federer off (as well as stalling him on his own serve) and it must be extremely frustrating. Momentum and rhythm are crucial to his game.

I think people underestimate how powerful controlling the tempo of a match can be. There is a reason basketball teams use timeouts whenever the opposing team gets on a roll. Timeouts often completely turn the tide and reset the game.

I kind of get some enjoyment out of the fact that Djokovic beats him by (among other things) using his own dirty tactic against him.

I also suspect that if the two biggest time wasters weren't the #1 and #2 ranked players we would see more enforcement of the rules.

[namelessone]

Originally Posted by Polvorin

Yes, that is true, Nadal always uses time violations to throw Federer off and it must be extremely frustrating. Momentum and rhythm are crucial to his game.

I think people underestimate how powerful controlling the tempo of a match can be. There is a reason basketball teams use timeouts whenever the opposing team gets on a roll. Timeouts often completely turn the tide and reset the game.

I kind of get a some enjoyment out of the fact that Djokovic beats him by (among other things) using his own dirty tactic against him.

I also suspect that if the two biggest time wasters weren't the #1 and #2 ranked players we would see more enforcement of the rules.

Nadal loves it when Djoko wastes time or else he'd complain.

Djokovic is hardly beating Nadal because he is wasting time as well but because of the matchup issues.

Also, Nadal and Djokovic were wasting time when they were relative newcomers as well and they didn't get punished for it. Djokovic has cut his ball bouncing a bit but still bounces big when crunch time comes. And you'd be surprised by how many players go over time regularly. Nadal is worst offender but ******* on the time rule is something that A LOT of players do.

[Polvorin]

Originally Posted by namelessone

Nadal loves it when Djoko wastes time or else he'd complain.

Djokovic is hardly beating Nadal because he is wasting time as well but because of the matchup issues.

First off, I doubt Nadal will ever complain about someone else stalling because he is the worst offender of all. If he complained about it they would have to enforce it against him as well as his opponents, and he obviously wouldn't like that because it is a winning tactic for him.

Also, what "matchup issue" is that? They play like a mirror of each other...

[namelessone]

Originally Posted by Polvorin

First off, I doubt Nadal will ever complain about someone else stalling because he is the worst offender of all. If he complained about it they would have to enforce it against him as well as his opponents, and he obviously wouldn't like that because it is a winning tactic for him.

Also, what "matchup issue" is that? They play like a mirror of each other...

Djokovic can reset the point at any moment by giving a high ball to Nadal's BH.

Djokovic's return brutalizes Nadal's serves for the most part.

Djokovic's serve doesn't have to be outstanding because of Nadal's poor ROS.

Djokovic's BH anihilates Nadal's best weapon, his FH.

[Polvorin]

Originally Posted by namelessone

Djokovic can reset the point at any moment by giving a high ball to Nadal's BH.

Djokovic's return brutalizes Nadal's serves for the most part.

Djokovic's serve doesn't have to be outstanding because of Nadal's poor ROS.

Djokovic's BH anihilates Nadal's best weapon, his FH.

These things don't seem like anything to do with this particular matchup.

For example, is there some reason why only Djokovic can throw a high ball to Nadal's backhand to reset a point? Can't any other player do the same thing? Is Djokovic's high ball somehow special?

Is there some reason Djokovic's serve return works especially well against Nadal? Isn't it just as effective against other players?

Do you really think Djokovic's backhand "annihilates" Nadal's forehand...(any more so than it annihilates other player's strokes?)

Nadal's poor ROS hardly seems like anything that works against him any more in this matchup than against any other player...

Furthermore, Nadal still has a winning record against Djokovic, does he not? It doesn't seem like this matchup has been too problematic for him. I don't see Djokovic's game specifically exploiting anything in Nadal's except maybe in the case of his second serve. He beats Nadal by outplaying him at his own game. He doesn't do anything that particularly forces Nadal to change his game plan or play out of his comfort zone.

[Big_Dangerous]

Originally Posted by kOaMaster

he is right though. the players take way too much time between the points. I can't stand that too. in other sports are booked for such time wasting behaviour

Yeah but not many other sports are individual like tennis. Only Golf is an example I can think of, but good luck trying to convince me that's not taking too much time.

All the other sports I can think of, allow players to sit down and rest for a considerable amount of time. Hockey has two intermissions, football, and basketball have halftime. Only baseball doesn't have a break, but even so most people would agree baseball isn't anywhere near as physically demanding as tennis.

[als47]

Originally Posted by Big_Dangerous

Yeah but not many other sports are individual like tennis. Only Golf is an example I can think of, but good luck trying to convince me that's not taking too much time.

All the other sports I can think of, allow players to sit down and rest for a considerable amount of time. Hockey has two intermissions, football, and basketball have halftime. Only baseball doesn't have a break, but even so most people would agree baseball isn't anywhere near as physically demanding as tennis.

Marathoners don't get to take a break in the middle of their 26.2 miles.

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by Polvorin

This post added absolutely nothing substantive to the discussion.

You're right. Sorry for the sarcasm.

[kOaMaster]

Originally Posted by Big_Dangerous

Yeah but not many other sports are individual like tennis. Only Golf is an example I can think of, but good luck trying to convince me that's not taking too much time.

All the other sports I can think of, allow players to sit down and rest for a considerable amount of time. Hockey has two intermissions, football, and basketball have halftime. Only baseball doesn't have a break, but even so most people would agree baseball isn't anywhere near as physically demanding as tennis.

I play badminton and can tell you that I've seen it more than once that a player lost service (point for the opponent) when he did not play fast enough or on the other side, when the receiver did take too long to be ready.

It is not less physical and certainly doesn't need less concentration. If there was a really long rally, they can ask the referee for a additional break/time to drink, usually around 20-30sek.

take a look at this:
Finals - MS - Lee. C.W vs Lin D. - 2012 Victor Korea Open

[NamRanger]

Originally Posted by Polvorin

These things don't seem like anything to do with this particular matchup.

For example, is there some reason why only Djokovic can throw a high ball to Nadal's backhand to reset a point? Can't any other player do the same thing? Is Djokovic's high ball somehow special?

Is there some reason Djokovic's serve return works especially well against Nadal? Isn't it just as effective against other players?

Do you really think Djokovic's backhand "annihilates" Nadal's forehand...(any more so than it annihilates other player's strokes?)

Nadal's poor ROS hardly seems like anything that works against him any more in this matchup than against any other player...

Furthermore, Nadal still has a winning record against Djokovic, does he not? It doesn't seem like this matchup has been too problematic for him. I don't see Djokovic's game specifically exploiting anything in Nadal's except maybe in the case of his second serve. He beats Nadal by outplaying him at his own game. He doesn't do anything that particularly forces Nadal to change his game plan or play out of his comfort zone.

Woot someone else who doesn't play tennis.


If you did, you would understand why the things namelessone listed are what give Nadal trouble. Novak is fast enough to get away with alot of things that other players cannot, and coupled with the fact that his strokes are better than Nadal as a package, you see why he is such a bad match-up.


Both Federer and Murray are able to put Novak into alot of bad positions that Nadal cannot. Nadal was playing like 120% level of tennis, far beyond even his best HC tennis ever, and he STILL lost. Novak was playing somewhere around 80-90% and still won. Should tell you why this is such a bad match-up for Nadal.

Originally Posted by Bobby Jr

I think they need first to stop the recent creep of receivers delaying the server as Nadal did untold in his match against Federer.

When they server is ready they should be able to serve within reason. It's silly for one player to be able to stuff around on his own serve, but for him to then disrupt the rhythm/flow of the server when he's receiving it bad form imo.

Making enforcing the time-clock mandatory for umpires whenever there is an obvious disparity between the speed of the players would seem a fair aim. Just how to do that is a difficult question which is probably the reason we rarely see the worst time wasters ever get warned.

Roger is the most studied player in the history. Any coach worth his salt would see from the get go that one of Federer's strengths is his brisk pace.
Get into his head by slowing him down. Don't give him the chance for a fifty second service game. Make him wait thirty to serve ONE.

In politics, you go after an opponents strengths and convert them to weaknesses.
However, you try to do this while adhering to the established rules.

[TTMR]

Great how the same people complaining about possible PED use at the top of the game are the same people complaining about certain players taking too much time between points to recover. They're also the ones complaining about how players don't participate fully or at all at end of the year events, and griping about certain players thinking the mandatory scheduling for top players is excessive.

[Bobby Jr]

Originally Posted by kOaMaster

I play badminton and can tell you that I've seen it more than once that a player lost service..

Ditto for squash where the rule is effectively "play must be continuous". As soon as you've collected the ball you basically have to make sure the opponent is ready and then serve right away. That's part of what makes it such an insanely good sport for people wanting to get fit (assuming they have the knees, hips, back for it).

Any time-wasting (and I'm talking like 15 seconds) and you lose the point.

[Moose Malloy]

some good points here:

Nadal’s and Djokovic’s final on Sunday was a classic, but it also was about an hour longer than it needed to be, as each player is among the slowest in men’s tennis when it comes to pace of play between points. There were 369 points played in 353 minutes of tennis, or 1.04 points per minute, in line with their slow pace in their six meetings in 2011.

You’ll hear, in their defense, how grueling the match was. That’s certainly a factor — the sight of the two players struggling to remain standing during interminable postmatch speeches before being brought chairs was a memorable one, and in one fifth-set rally they ran a combined 540 feet, or two city blocks, according to ESPN. So it’s forgivable that their last 16 points, over the final two games, took 16 minutes.

But even in their very first service games, each player exceeded the allotted 20 seconds between points – on every point. Neither took fewer than 24 seconds even once, and Djokovic averaged 28 seconds while Nadal averaged 26. This was before they’d even played two games. Yet the average rally lasted just 5.4 shots according to Eurosport, far less than the 6.9 shots they averaged during their U.S. Open final last fall. On the same court, in similar conditions and in matches with as many scintillating, long rallies, Federer and Nadal managed to fit in 1.24 points per minute in their semifinal on Thursday. Then Djokovic and Murray squeezed in 1.19 points per minute in their semi on Friday. Had Nadal or Djokovic channeled their inner Federer between points, if not during points, they could have finished the match without setting a new record for longest open-era Grand Slam final.

http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2012/0...e-slow-escape/

[Polvorin]

Originally Posted by NamRanger

Woot someone else who doesn't play tennis.


If you did, you would understand why the things namelessone listed are what give Nadal trouble. Novak is fast enough to get away with alot of things that other players cannot, and coupled with the fact that his strokes are better than Nadal as a package, you see why he is such a bad match-up.


Both Federer and Murray are able to put Novak into alot of bad positions that Nadal cannot. Nadal was playing like 120% level of tennis, far beyond even his best HC tennis ever, and he STILL lost. Novak was playing somewhere around 80-90% and still won. Should tell you why this is such a bad match-up for Nadal.

There is a difference between outplaying someone and having a good matchup against that specific player.

However, of course you open up with condescension and arrogance because you don't have a real argument, and you're probably smart enough to realize it.

[egn]

The reason the time limit should be enforced is standing around so long when you are receiving can cause you to just lose focus. The stupid bouncing a ton, stopping, then bouncing again is annoying, and I hate playing those players at club level. When guys like Nadal bounce 10 times, stop and hold the ball, it makes you think they are about to serve, you will start to prepare your body for it, but if they go back to bouncing you get slightly flustered. If a server absues that and basically leaves the returner waiting all day if they are going to serve thats unfair. Sure the returner should be paying attention, but it should not be half a minute between points. Serving is a big enough advantage as it is, but the returner shouldn't have to be guessing when on earth you are going to decide to start the point, only where. Besides its not up to the returner to waste time after a point that may be tough on him, but if a server has to do a ton of running, they can just waste time. The 20-25s rule is important because it means the server does not have a huge time to control momentum.

Imagine how boring basketball would be without a shot clock. The winning team could just pass the ball back and forth for minutes before shooting.