Looks like USTA is finding new ways to mess up in VA

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by catfish

You can do a google search and find out that the decision to change to "Quad Level" was made by the tennis director at Indian Wells. Indian Wells hosts the National championships for Tri-level and they decided to change the format to Quad Level for 2013. Then they decided to change back the format to Tri-level.

Edit: I can't find the link now, but the Tri-level national event is something that Indian Wells put together in conjunction with USTA. (I've never been, but I'm sure it's a nice event.) As an FYI, Tri-level is the only league that had a National Event before leagues were well established, and this is not what normally happens for a USTA league. For example, Combo is a huge & growing league but it does not have a National Championship at this point. Anyway, I believe that Indian Wells had a lot of control over the Tri-level National Championship, and they changed the format to Quad and asked the Sectionals to comply. You could still have a Tri-level league, but the winners would not advance to the National tournament at Indian Wells.

The link suggested they were reverting back to Tri, not eliminating the league entirely.

It is really hard to get on a Tri team around here. Each team only needs a few players at each level, so only the strongest need apply.

It is the only league that does not reward or require depth, only strength.

[Topaz]

Yes, it went from tri to quad now back to tri. And the 3.0s are (understandably) hopping mad. Nova is in the middle of women's tri/quad/tri and it's been one huge mess.

[catfish]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

The link suggested they were reverting back to Tri, not eliminating the league entirely.

It is really hard to get on a Tri team around here. Each team only needs a few players at each level, so only the strongest need apply.

It is the only league that does not reward or require depth, only strength.

I was talking about a different link. This one is a letter from the Indian Wells Tennis director to Sectional League Coordinators and it talks about the Quad level for 2013.

http://assets.usta.com/assets/635/15...MPIONSHIPS.pdf

[Local Girl]

The Pacific Northwest Section does their tri-level (One Doubles) league as individual playing levels for men and women -- 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5. The teams are minimum 2 players, max 6 players. Each team match is just one doubles. This solves the problem of having to build a team with players at all playing levels.

The 3.5 - 4.5 men & women teams that win at sectionals go to Indian Wells representing the Section.

[Hitman99]

Being a NoVA resident, I can understand why some folks would prefer to play in a league outside of their geographic residence state, for many reasons. But I don't understand why they should be able to play in multiple USTA sections at the same time. Just my humble opinion.......

[Angle Queen]

^^

Agreed here, Hitman. Pick one. Granted, I'm not in a locale that suits itself to playing in multiple Districts...but the entire premise of it rubs me the wrong way. Like you, I can see living in one but playing in another (for logistics) but being able to pick-n-choose, eh, not so much. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Hedging your bets is best done only with a bad bookie.

But this "grow the game" but not too much or "have too many" mantra by USTA stinks for USTA/VA. Don't tell us to increase participation, then sever our votes.

And this whole tri-level/quad-level thing smells. Worse than the diapers I used to change.

[Cindysphinx]

As someone who lives in one state but plays in two others, I see nothing wrong with this. There are reasons to do this having nothing to do with hedging your bets.

I play Virginia day league because it is a rare opportunity to play outdoors in the springtime, which is lovely after months of being indoors. I also like that the level of competition is high and I know none of my opponents so there is no history.

I play DC because the culture there is different. I get to meet different people. I like that the ladies senior matches were at a convenient time and location for me. DC leagues advance to sectionals without the need to go to Districts.

Also keep in mind that different jurisdictions play different formats at different times. The seniors league is in January in MD, but in the summer in DC. There is no singles league in MD, but VA has one for those interested in singles. VA had tri-level years before MD did. On the other hand, I don't like to do VA night leagues because of the traffic and the time limit of 90 minutes.

If I had to pick just one league (MD), it would reduce my tennis opportunities considerably. How is that good for anyone?

[Angle Queen]

^^ We're just going to disagree on this one, Cindy. It's available to you...so by all mean, avail yourself of it. I hate to pull out the "fair" or "equal" clause but it just isn't. Those of us that live in the geographic center of a large District don't have the chance to try our luck(skills?) someplace else.

I see playing in two different Districts (without any restriction) similar to the same one team playing weekday and weekend -- hence the 2-person rule. And while they've removed the % rule on how many can play up, you've still got to declare yourself before Districts. If you're playing in multiple Districts you don't have to declare doodley.

No, what really needs to happen is MAS needs to suck it up and realign our "Districts" to make more sense out of how "regions" really work. West Virginia seems to have completely fallen off the map. Half (or more) of the "DC" teams don't live there and there's no reason the Outer Banks people shouldn't be grouped in with the Virginia Beach crowd.

Again, I don't bemoan you the opportunity to play in three different Districts. I just don't think you should be allowed to.

[Topaz]

It is definitely a situation that I think is somewhat unique to this area. It may get me in a pickle come districts time this year.

AQ, I wouldn't mind having districts at the Outer Banks!

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Angle Queen

I see playing in two different Districts (without any restriction) similar to the same one team playing weekday and weekend -- hence the 2-person rule. And while they've removed the % rule on how many can play up, you've still got to declare yourself before Districts. If you're playing in multiple Districts you don't have to declare doodley.

I'm confused.

If I join two 4.0 teams (say, one in Montgomery County and one in Howard County, MD) and both teams advance, I still have to declare before Districts.

Also, the two-player rule prevents me from having my whole team compete in MOCO and HOCO in the same season.

I guess I don't see the unfairness. I live in MOCO, so the closest venues for me are MOCO. If I want to play in another District, I have to drive, drive, drive. How far a drive would it be for you to play in the next closest league?

I dunno, I guess I figure that having the opportunity to play in several leagues/counties at once is a function of living in a congested metro area. That's one of the benefits. One of the disadvantages would be how we have to have timed matches and pay $17/match for the court time.

I guess I don't see what would be achieved by telling me that I cannot play in Virginia as well as MOCO if I am willing to make the drive and deal with the traffic. If the objection is that it isn't fair because I get extra playing opportunities . . . I could say that it is not fair that people in your area don't have to pay the kind of court fees we must pay. I guess my point is that just because something is different doesn't make it unfair.

No, what really needs to happen is MAS needs to suck it up and realign our "Districts" to make more sense out of how "regions" really work. West Virginia seems to have completely fallen off the map. Half (or more) of the "DC" teams don't live there and there's no reason the Outer Banks people shouldn't be grouped in with the Virginia Beach crowd.

I'm still confused.

For Virginia, there seem to be several regions. When I went to Sectionals, it seemed like Virginia was over-represented. Meaning there were more VA teams than DC or MD. This makes sense, given that there are more VA players.

Are you saying that VA should be divided into smaller districts so there could be more of them so players could have more playing options? I guess that would be fine, but it seems that Northern Virginia is already kind of maxed out given that they play timed matches and only get 90 minutes. I guess if NOVA wanted to kick out all non-resident players to make way for their own players, that would be justifiable.

[Angle Queen]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I'm confused.

If I join two 4.0 teams (say, one in Montgomery County and one in Howard County, MD) and both teams advance, I still have to declare before Districts.

What's to be confused about? MOCo and Howard County are in the same District. Maryland.

Also, the two-player rule prevents me from having my whole team compete in MOCO and HOCO in the same season.

Exactly.

But where's the rule preventing you from taking that MOCO team...and playing with that entire team....in DC? That's my point. If I recall correctly, there's still a declaration that's got to be made before Sectionals, but just like the Sections not DQing at Sectionals, I think it's too late and the damage has already been done.

I guess I don't see the unfairness. I live in MOCO, so the closest venues for me are MOCO. If I want to play in another District, I have to drive, drive, drive. How far a drive would it be for you to play in the next closest league?

Not the same question. The real question is how far would I have to drive to play in a different District. The answer to that one is over two hours. The answer to your question is still over an hour away (in Fredericksburg).

Still, two hours, for a dedicated player might be acceptable. But let's ask the guys in Austin or Miami or Seattle what their answer would be.

I dunno, I guess I figure that having the opportunity to play in several leagues/counties at once is a function of living in a congested metro area. That's one of the benefits. One of the disadvantages would be how we have to have timed matches and pay $17/match for the court time.

True on the first sentence. But we've got some of our own issues with the last. We, too, have timed matches (during the indoor season) and a growing number of clubs here charge for court time as well.

I'm still confused.

For Virginia, there seem to be several regions. When I went to Sectionals, it seemed like Virginia was over-represented. Meaning there were more VA teams than DC or MD. This makes sense, given that there are more VA players.

As far as USTA/MAS and USTA/VA is concerned, we are not broken up into "regions" (like, say, Florida is). There is only one "Districts" tournament and the teams must come from all over the state to that one same spot.

As for "over-representation" at Sectionals, if that's the case at all, that's a fairly new phenomena. At the 3.5 level I'm most familiar with...as recently as 2008, there was only one team from each District: VA, MD, WV and DC. But the following year, 2009, WV threw in the towel (so to speak) and gave up their "slot" to MAS...who apparently awarded in to VA. It was my understanding that it was to be rotated (mostly between just VA and MD). But VA got that slot again in 2010. Last year, MAS Sectionals had/hosted a completely different format with three teams from VA, two teams from MD and one from DC.

Are you saying that VA should be divided into smaller districts so there could be more of them so players could have more playing options? I guess that would be fine, but it seems that Northern Virginia is already kind of maxed out given that they play timed matches and only get 90 minutes. I guess if NOVA wanted to kick out all non-resident players to make way for their own players, that would be justifiable.

I just think the whole Section could be divided more along "regional" lines as opposed to hard-and-fast, state borders. Should the Prince William County folks have to play in Fredericksburg? Maybe. Or the Loudon County folks with Winchester? I dunno. I don't live up there but do know y'all drive too darn much for your own good. Our own metro area is/can be large. As one of the more outlying clubs, when we play a club from deep on the Southside, someone's got close to an hour drive (or more). In fact, some of the mens leagues are loosely divided up into Northside and Southside flights just to minimize travel times...so more of our "hobby" time can perhaps be spent on the court rather than the road. If you want more people to be involved, you've got to make it as logical and convenient as you can.

I just think holding to the old ways can be the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring that times have changed. A more honest look at who the players are and where they (live/work/most desire to play) might yield a more cohesive overall league structure.

[Angle Queen]

Originally Posted by Topaz

It is definitely a situation that I think is somewhat unique to this area. It may get me in a pickle come districts time this year.

I don't know the geography of most of the major metropolitan areas across the country but I do think the VA/DC/MD is a rather unique one. Here you have access to three full-fledged USTA "Districts" in a relatively small area...including one that has a fairly small total population as well as tennis-playing residents (DC). That a city with the population size and geographic area of the District of Columbia is its own USTA District is poor management. Their estimated population of ~600,000 is less than our own Richmond metro area yet we've had to slug it out with more people/potential players...just to win our area's flight...much less win our state's District.

No, I think a better model might come from the Heartland. Take a look at how the area around Kansas City is structured. Two states are part of the KC metro area, yet it's just one District. I don't know enough about the Chicago area to know if they are in a similar situation. Three districts in a (relatively) small geo area....but I'd argue that Chicago and DC are not the same beasts and have vastly differing population sizes and types. Let's face it; many of DC's residents are transients. Just go ask the families who've lived at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Tops they're there is 8 years. Some only 4. And you and I both know that, with few exceptions, DC is a virtual ghost town on the weekends.

AQ, I wouldn't mind having districts at the Outer Banks!

That...would be Sa-Weet!

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by Angle Queen

What's to be confused about? MOCo and Howard County are in the same District. Maryland.

]

OK. I didn't understand that "District" meant "State."

But where's the rule preventing you from taking that MOCO team...and playing with that entire team....in DC? That's my point. If I recall correctly, there's still a declaration that's got to be made before Sectionals, but just like the Sections not DQing at Sectionals, I think it's too late and the damage has already been done.

The rule that prevents me from taking my whole team to DC is the two-player rule. In Mid-Atlantic, you cannot have more than two players on the same team in the same division. So if my favorite MOCO partner and I decide to play in on my MD team and also join a DC team, no one else from my MD team can go with us. That rule applies for the entire season, not just the post-season.

The real question is how far would I have to drive to play in a different District. The answer to that one is over two hours. The answer to your question is still over an hour away (in Fredericksburg).

If I want to play in NOVA or Howard County or Frederick County, I need to be prepared to drive. The distances are not great; the traffic is a nightmare. Even in my home county, the farthest venue for me is Fairlands. That is one hour of driving each way for me, assuming decent traffic.

The point, though, is that you have the same exact choice to make as I do. If you want to play in additional leagues, you have to drive. You alone have to decide whether it is worth it. I have declined many invitations to play Howard County and Prince George's County because I do not yet own a helicopter.

But we've got some of our own issues with the last. We, too, have timed matches (during the indoor season) and a growing number of clubs here charge for court time as well.

I guess I don't see what the problem is that needs to be addressed. I mean, if a person chooses to live in a rural area or one with fewer tennis players, that person will have fewer playing options than someone who lives in a more congested area.

Take the sunnier climates, like Florida or Atlanta. They have it good. They can play outdoors year around, they can play for much less money. They have more playing options. Good for them. Let them enjoy the tennis benefits of living where they live. What reason is there to prevent me from having better tennis options or conditions than you have? I just don't understand, given that what I am doing up here in Suburban MD doesn't affect you in VA at all.

As far as USTA/MAS and USTA/VA is concerned, we are not broken up into "regions" (like, say, Florida is). There is only one "Districts" tournament and the teams must come from all over the state to that one same spot.

Same here. There is one MD Districts, and all MD teams must meet there to determine our representatives at sectionals.

As for "over-representation" at Sectionals, if that's the case at all, that's a fairly new phenomena. At the 3.5 level I'm most familiar with...as recently as 2008, there was only one team from each District: VA, MD, WV and DC. But the following year, 2009, WV threw in the towel (so to speak) and gave up their "slot" to MAS...who apparently awarded in to VA. It was my understanding that it was to be rotated (mostly between just VA and MD). But VA got that slot again in 2010. Last year, MAS Sectionals had/hosted a completely different format with three teams from VA, two teams from MD and one from DC.

Yes, I was thinking more of senior ladies and senior mixed, as that is the only time I have been to sectionals.

For senior 3.5 ladies, there were two VA teams, one DC and one MD.

For 7.0 senior mixed, there were two VA, two MD and one DC.

I just think the whole Section could be divided more along "regional" lines as opposed to hard-and-fast, state borders. . . . . If you want more people to be involved, you've got to make it as logical and convenient as you can.

Sure. Maybe VA needs to re-draw its lines or re-organize.

Why do VA's troubles mean the rules should be that I can't go play in DC or VA if I want? That's the part I don't get when I say I am confused.

[Hitman99]

Great dialog! I have a better understanding now of the issues. I guess I have just learned over the years that, unfortunately, many USTA players, captains, and teams will take advantage of every loophole in the rules, if they can. That's the American Way! C'est la vie.......

[Angle Queen]

Sorry for the delay in a final response from me. Spent the better part of the day preparing for a day-long Spaghetti Dinner fundraiser...tomorrow. If I never see another pasta noodle again....

Back to our discussion.

I decided to go back through the thread to see how we ended where we did and I found two things Cindy said that made me (re?)think some of my position.

First, she came out and said what I danced around:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I know there is a lot of friction between DC and MD (perhaps not on the administration level but on the player level). Certain MD players have a habit of fielding all-star teams in DC to earn an easy trip to sectionals without the bother of going through MD Districts.

I'd venture the friction isn't just with MD. It's also a way for VA players to avoid having to slug it out in VA Districts which is an expensive, grueling and uncertain 3-day adventure.

I took a look at DC’s 3.5 & 4.0 M & W “winners" from 2011 and true enough, they certainly seemed to be of the “all-star” variety. All four teams were undefeated in the sole flight for each group and less than 1/3 of any of the 4 teams had DC addresses. No flight playoffs, no Districts. Just an “Advance to Go, Collect your Sectional Slot” card.

Then, in a bit more round about way, Cindy asked why wouldn’t having more opportunities to play by being able/allowed to play in other Districts be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

If I had to pick just one league (MD), it would reduce my tennis opportunities considerably. How is that good for anyone?

In general, I’ll give you that more opportunities for more people is usually a good thing. And I guess, if I lived where you do, I might do as you too and play wherever my skills proved most valuable (to my team and myself). Hey, if the rules allow it, the District most being taken advantage of (although they may think they’re taking advantage of you!) seems to play along too, then by all means, play on.

And she properly corrected my misunderstanding about MAS’s “2-person rule” applying even across District lines. Rather, it doesn’t apply across all the Divisions. Confusing, that. Since I don't think it's ever been an issue in our area, it's not directly spelled out in the 2-page "explanation" our area issues on that rule.

If anything, the 2-person rule forces "all-star" teams. I'm undecided on whether that's a good thing on not. In general, in our area, teams are associated with clubs or neighborhoods or fairly close geographic areas. In fact, most of the clubs have very strict requirements on the make-ups of their teams. But more recently, we (as a community) have come to realize that kind of structure makes it relatively difficult to field a super-strong team to compete at Districts/Sectionals and beyond. So, a few "all-star" teams have sprung up; some with mega success. I like the cohesiveness of our "affiliated" teams but appreciate the need and desire for independent and/or all-star teams.

I fear I maybe strayed a bit but I wanted to acknowledge Cindy's point about the 2-person business since I had previously used it as one of my reasons for not wanting cross-district play.

Where we might continue to diverge is, however, is probably on the concept of playoffs. And I guess I’m coming around to the same feelings that I’ve come to develop on self-rates. You can play all the regular season you want, but don’t plan on advancing unless you get a C rating. So, I guess I’ll amend my thinking to postulate the same rules for playing across District lines. Play all the regular season you want (or can), just don’t think you can shop for an easy (mark) District and glide your way to the next level. Or, in the interest of some flexibility, create some sort of residency rule (say a certain percentage...similar to the way some Sections/Districts only allow a certain percentage of playing “up”).

The best analogy I can think of comes from World Cup (in soccer/football) and even Davis Cup for tennis. David Beckham has played for teams in Spain, Italy and the US. But when it’s time for his sport’s ultimate “team” championship, he goes home. And wears the Red & White cross of England. Andy Roddick plays tournaments around the globe, but come Davis Cup time, he’s wearing the Stars & Stripes.

Otherwise, perhaps it’s time to get rid of the DC USTA District. It’s clear they don’t have enough residents to field anything remotely resembling a flight like their neighboring “Districts” (even with allowing “outsiders” to pay-n-play). As a bone, allow DC residents to play (even in the post-season) for either MD or VA....but get rid of all the administrative costs of running a District for the District of Columbia

So there you have it. To keep the dialog civil and on-point, I’ll leave it at that. Early on, I said we’d probably just disagree. And we still might...but I know I’ve learned more about our Sections workings. And that’s a good thing.

[Topaz]

Interesting points, AQ. And you and Cindy are spot on in that the structure in DC allows players from both MD and VA to form 'all star' teams with the goal of making it to sectionals. I'm not going to lie, I've been parts of those efforts in the past, and possibly in the future. Any small league presents people with the same opportunity. For everyone. So, when people have complained that my outdoor team (which usually goes to districts after winning the league...a league that at times has had a total of two teams in it) gets to go to districts, I point out that others have the ability to take advantage of the same opportunities we do. Form a team and do it. And then I also point out that we do well at districts...it isn't like we don't belong.

But as AQ knows, VA districts is insanely hard. A ton of matches, $$$ for overnights at hotels, and unbelievable heat. This past year was a bit of an exception in that the format actually made it easier to advance, since three VA teams went through (and personally, I think that is fair given the huge number of players and teams in VA). So, when the opportunity to advance without having to do that comes up, of course people are going to jump on it.

I used to disagree with the idea of not letting self-rates advance to post season play, but I have to say...I'm definitely coming around to that idea. Sure, there are a few legit self-rates out there, but these days...they are a tiny, tiny minority. Gotta earn your stripes for one year!

[Cindysphinx]

Boy, the TT ladies are an interesting bunch. Thoughtful, civil, respectful discussion. Gotta love it.

A few random points and observations.

AQ, I think you have identified a way in which my tennis universe is different from yours. We are not organized by club at all. Many of us are not members of any club, and many club players choose club-based alternatives to USTA (GUIDA and Interclub).

It is therefore easy to join many teams with your BFF partner and not violate the two-player rule. I plan to play MOCO and DC this spring with my BFF partner.

Yes, VA districts is much harder than MD districts. We don't need hotel rooms, as the venue is centrally located for most teams. Now that two teams advance, you can "throw" the final and not put out your best players, secure in the knowledge that you will advance.

Part of that seems to be that VA allows a lot more types of teams to advance. You guys have an NOVA outdoor league and also a day league that advances. Maybe cutting back on that would help make VA Districts less of a death march?

And Topaz is right: The way to sneak your way into Nationals is to find opportunities to play in small leagues (DC). That is essentially what my DC senior 3.5 ladies team did. The team was truly a DC team in that it has existed for years and the captains are icons in DC. The six players who played all of the matches at Nationals were from Maryland, however.

I captain a spring team each year, and I cannot even imagine what it would take to get to Nationals. I'd need to find 5-6 rock-solid singles players. I'd have to use my remaining slots for amazing doubles players. Then we would have to slog through a long regular season (18 matches last year), then Districts. Then we would have to slay the VA beasts.

We never even came close.

[Topaz]

Cindy, you guys certainly did come close! I don't think anyone had the two MD teams advancing that did...we all thought it was you and you-know-who!

[Cindysphinx]

We would have been crushed in singles. Our ladies did their best, but the other singles players at districts were more than we could handle.

I guess one advantage of 4.0 is we don't have to deal with you-know-who anymore.

[Topaz]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

We would have been crushed in singles. Our ladies did their best, but the other singles players at districts were more than we could handle.

I guess one advantage of 4.0 is we don't have to deal with you-know-who anymore.

Ha, unfortunately, I don't have that luxury!!! She who will not be named tried to recruit one of my best friends, but I put my foot down!

Actually, I would've played mixed for her, had she asked, but I think I am forever blackballed in her mind for not playing for her last year. Here I thought I was going to play for a less stressful team, but little did I know! Still, I had a very good experience with the captain I did play for.