another options for best support insole except superfeet? - Page 2

Power Player · 03-07-2012, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeler

Agreed. My last pair of New Balances I bought for $60 at the Outlet store so they are more expensive in the other stores. First thing I did was throw away the brand spanking new insoles and put the Scholls in. I showed my wife the difference between the two insoles and she was shocked at how flimsy the insoles are that come with the shoe.

You should see the Kswiss inserts..they are like paper towels.

And going with no insoles sounds nice and romantic, and I am sure your feet do get stronger, but its not just about the feet, its about shins, ankles..knees as well.

Rozroz · 03-07-2012, 06:00 AM

anyone please try playing tennis barefoot.. (unless it's grass)
let's see what will be left from his feet afterward..
ouch!!

Povl Carstensen · 03-07-2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rozroz

anyone please try playing tennis barefoot.. (unless it's grass)
let's see what will be left from his feet afterward..
ouch!!

I play tennis on clay and Rebound Ace barefoot, very happy with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramon

That's actually a good point. One of the trends in the athletic shoe industry is towards minimalist shoes that provide almost no support. It's like going barefoot except you'll be protected from the hot summer pavement and pieces of gravel. The theory is somewhere along the lines that your feet will adapt naturally and get stronger.

I know that the body is very good at adapting. That's why, for instance, I don't wear a weight belt when I do squats because I believe it helps you develop supporting muscles. However, I'm still not sold on the idea of minimalist shoes for someone like myself. I have weak feet and I pronate when I run. That means if I go barefoot or wear minimalist shoes, I will pronate even more and this could lead to knee and hip problems. I have also turned my ankle in the past while playing tennis, so it concerns me that less support would add to the possibility of turning my ankle. Perhaps someone with stronger feet to begin with might not have this problem and would be better off with less support to strengthen his feet more.

I think you contradict yourself somewhat in the beginning/end of your post. The ground gives you all the antipronation you need (nothing wrong with pronation per se). And "weak" feet... Perhaps from spending a lifetime in "supportive" shoes. Luckily no tennisplayers say I have "weak" arms and put them in contraptions that disallow them to work. And the risk and severity of turning your ankle diminishes the closer you are to the ground.

Rozroz · 03-07-2012, 02:06 PM

there are people with feet problems, there are older people (30-70) that need to keep their feet secure while playing tennis, which includes jumping, knee stress, and a lot of sprints, stops, changing directions etc..
the tennis shoes unquestionably help protecting the foot through all this, and good insoles make it even safer.
what's unhealthy with that?

SystemicAnomaly · 03-07-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

Feet will never get strong with support. But don't want to hijack the thread, so sorry....

I have heard a number of people that advocate barefoot or minimalist footwear for distance running but do not do so for tennis. Tennis is more on the balls of the feet than distance running and employs a lot of quick starts/stops, pivoting, hops, lateral movement, retrograde movement, etc.

Not sure that barefoot or minimalist footwear is the way to go for tennis.

In the past, I found that heel support helped with my heel spurs and my Achilles tendon issues. More recently, supportive insoles have minimized shin splints and knee pain (arthritis). Without the support, I am prone to shin splints and my knees pay a higher price.

Povl Carstensen · 03-08-2012, 01:52 PM

To me the ground gives plenty support, shoes filters it away. But I will stay out of a thread about inserts (and insoles), stopped using them 10 years ago.

LeeD · 03-08-2012, 01:56 PM

FOR YOU, the ground supports the best.
But maybe for ANOTHER player, maybe one with foot injuries, or maybe one with really flat feet, the ground DOES NOT provide adaquate support.
You counter with....make your feet stronger by running barefoot. I agree! It can be done. But maybe not when you're 63 years old....too late.

Rozroz · 03-09-2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

To me the ground gives plenty support, shoes filters it away. But I will stay out of a thread about inserts (and insoles), stopped using them 10 years ago.

well i have only concrete hardcourts to use..

SystemicAnomaly · 03-09-2012, 02:34 PM

There may be some benefits to running barefoot or with minimalist shoes on some surfaces. Not sure how well this transfers to playing tennis on a hard, unforgiving surface. Quick stops and sudden directional changes/pivoting on a hard surface is probably the biggest problem.

Before the advent of shoes, humans walked and ran in the sand and on soft, medium and, sometimes, hard ground. The foot was engineered for this. Shoes and sandals were developed for comfort, particularly when dealing with hostile surfaces. While the foot may derive some support from the ground, one of the functions of shoes is to provide comfort as well.

Some pros & cons of barefoot running and minimalist shoes:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/r...ot-Running.htm

http://www.livestrong.com/article/54...alist-running/

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/06/137656...etic-toe-shoes

Povl Carstensen · 03-10-2012, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD

FOR YOU, the ground supports the best.
But maybe for ANOTHER player, maybe one with foot injuries, or maybe one with really flat feet, the ground DOES NOT provide adaquate support.
You counter with....make your feet stronger by running barefoot. I agree! It can be done. But maybe not when you're 63 years old....too late.

Admittedly, I'm a 51 year old with flat feet who used prescribed orthodics for years, and was relegated from military service because of a knee condition.

SystemicAnomaly · 03-11-2012, 01:42 AM

In the NPR link that I provided above, Dr. James Christina (podiatrist) says some interesting things about the benefits of barefoot (and minimalist shoe) running. He mentions that some college teams have their runner do some of their training barefoot in an open field to help strengthen some of the muscles of the foot (and legs?). However, very few of these runners actually compete this way.

The Vibram site has a section on "barefoot" sports. Tennis is not one of these sports:

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/barefoot-sports

I also came across another site that talks about playing tennis with Vibram minimalist shoes. The author, an advocate of these shoes, discusses both the positive and negative with regards to using them for tennis...

"While moving around the court is not a problem what ends up being a problem is sprinting to chase down balls. Sprinting in FiveFingers is easy, what’s hard (and painful) is slowing down quickly. Tennis is a lot of stop-and-go and spurts of speed. When you have padded shoes you don’t really notice how much you rely on your heel to stop or brake your movement... "

http://barefootrunningshoes.org/2010/02/23/barefoot-tennis-shoes

Rozroz · 03-11-2012, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

When you have padded shoes you don’t really notice how much you rely on your heel to stop or brake your movement... "

wouldn't want my foot to look like my Barricade's sole after 3 months

LeeD · 03-12-2012, 02:48 PM

Povl...
We should be looking at this from the same page, as opposed to opposing thoughts.
I too have super flat feet. Flat enough to get me out of the military, 1970, after accepting me for a 8 year hitch and having served almost 13 months!
As you know, people with flat feet can fake an arch given static conditions, and that's how I got in.
I played high school team football and basketball, so I can run.
At 58, I could still run as well as most 30 year olds.
One big sprain of the ankle later, it's light's out....no running, no recovery from an ankle sprain. The pain comes from below the ankle bone. Then 4 years later, pushing my g/f into waves so she could learn to surf, flattenned out my other foot, now TWO "sprained ankles", with little chance for recovery.
Notice I'm 12 years older than you. Beware. I know some old farts who can't walk at all without arch supports, almost dibilitated bare feet.
I doubt all the exercise and PT in the world can help now.
Getting old sucks....getting old with flat feet is worse.

Povl Carstensen · 03-13-2012, 02:18 AM

Well I hope we are on the same page, or same side; that people should do what makes them the most pain free and healthy, and play the best sports they can. And I totally respect that there can be injuries and chronic conditions that require special means. I just feel that the "I have bad feet", "I have weak feet" is vastly overstated (in lack of a better word).
There is nothing fatal about flat feet or pronation per definition. And look at all the threads here about people with problems in spite of modern technology.
Basically I would say, if you can enjoy walking in bare feet or socks, you probably dont need the technology. Lots of people feel ok in bare feet ("love it in the summer", etc), but have problems in shoes, that they (mistakingly, imo) try to cure through more shoe tech.
When the orthopedic surgeon prescribed me the inserts, I asked him if there was anything I could do to train my feet. No, he said, you just have to wear these always. Turned out he was wrong.
So, inspired by the fact that I was not very healthy or comfortable with the inserts, and that I enjoyed being barefoot, I dropped the inserts and insoles in general, and focused on having good stable shoes. But still I would have problems with certain shoes, and all shoes as they got worn. Which has lead me to the point were I am now, where I only use minimal shoes (mostly Vivo Barefoot), and do some of my sports without shoes (and enjoy the barefoot experience at the beach etc, as most of us?). And I have no problems to speak of concerning feet, knees, hips or back.
And this is why I perhaps a bit stubbornly keep repeating that "high tech" shoes and technology actually can be something that keep your feet from being and becomming strong and healthy and pain free.

LeeD · 03-13-2012, 12:20 PM

Interesting your flat feet doesn't bother your legs at all....
Mine are a completely flat footprint, so no arch whatsoever.
Been doing sports all my life, but especially running on the beach as a kid.
I can probably name a dozen or so professional athletes whose career was ended by foot problems....and they had flat feet to start with.
I also can name twice that who had great careers in sports despite their flat feet, but now retired, have problems walking or running with advancing age.
I can also name at least a few people who've done OK all thru their lives, until reaching retirement age, and now their flat feet totally screw up their sports lifestyles.
Guess it's not an exact science.

Povl Carstensen · 03-14-2012, 12:32 AM

Yes its not an exact science, so I think people should give their feet a chance, instead of being caught up in dogmatic treatment/high tech thinking. And if it does not work for them, fair enough. It worked for me.
You can do exercices that strengthen your arches, but archsupport is a sure way for them to atrophy.

03-08-2012, 01:52 PM	#26
Povl Carstensen Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,014	To me the ground gives plenty support, shoes filters it away. But I will stay out of a thread about inserts (and insoles), stopped using them 10 years ago. __________________ K90, Gosen OG Micro 16, 23 kg.

03-09-2012, 02:34 PM	#29
SystemicAnomaly Legend Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA Posts: 7,730	There may be some benefits to running barefoot or with minimalist shoes on some surfaces. Not sure how well this transfers to playing tennis on a hard, unforgiving surface. Quick stops and sudden directional changes/pivoting on a hard surface is probably the biggest problem. Before the advent of shoes, humans walked and ran in the sand and on soft, medium and, sometimes, hard ground. The foot was engineered for this. Shoes and sandals were developed for comfort, particularly when dealing with hostile surfaces. While the foot may derive some support from the ground, one of the functions of shoes is to provide comfort as well. Some pros & cons of barefoot running and minimalist shoes: http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/r...ot-Running.htm http://www.livestrong.com/article/54...alist-running/ http://www.npr.org/2011/07/06/137656...etic-toe-shoes __________________ . Every tool is a weapon -- if you hold it right. (~Ani DiFranco)

03-11-2012, 01:42 AM	#31
SystemicAnomaly Legend Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA Posts: 7,730	In the NPR link that I provided above, Dr. James Christina (podiatrist) says some interesting things about the benefits of barefoot (and minimalist shoe) running. He mentions that some college teams have their runner do some of their training barefoot in an open field to help strengthen some of the muscles of the foot (and legs?). However, very few of these runners actually compete this way. The Vibram site has a section on "barefoot" sports. Tennis is not one of these sports: http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/barefoot-sports I also came across another site that talks about playing tennis with Vibram minimalist shoes. The author, an advocate of these shoes, discusses both the positive and negative with regards to using them for tennis... "While moving around the court is not a problem what ends up being a problem is sprinting to chase down balls. Sprinting in FiveFingers is easy, what’s hard (and painful) is slowing down quickly. Tennis is a lot of stop-and-go and spurts of speed. When you have padded shoes you don’t really notice how much you rely on your heel to stop or brake your movement... " http://barefootrunningshoes.org/2010/02/23/barefoot-tennis-shoes __________________ . Every tool is a weapon -- if you hold it right. (~Ani DiFranco)

03-13-2012, 02:18 AM	#34
Povl Carstensen Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,014	Well I hope we are on the same page, or same side; that people should do what makes them the most pain free and healthy, and play the best sports they can. And I totally respect that there can be injuries and chronic conditions that require special means. I just feel that the "I have bad feet", "I have weak feet" is vastly overstated (in lack of a better word). There is nothing fatal about flat feet or pronation per definition. And look at all the threads here about people with problems in spite of modern technology. Basically I would say, if you can enjoy walking in bare feet or socks, you probably dont need the technology. Lots of people feel ok in bare feet ("love it in the summer", etc), but have problems in shoes, that they (mistakingly, imo) try to cure through more shoe tech. When the orthopedic surgeon prescribed me the inserts, I asked him if there was anything I could do to train my feet. No, he said, you just have to wear these always. Turned out he was wrong. So, inspired by the fact that I was not very healthy or comfortable with the inserts, and that I enjoyed being barefoot, I dropped the inserts and insoles in general, and focused on having good stable shoes. But still I would have problems with certain shoes, and all shoes as they got worn. Which has lead me to the point were I am now, where I only use minimal shoes (mostly Vivo Barefoot), and do some of my sports without shoes (and enjoy the barefoot experience at the beach etc, as most of us?). And I have no problems to speak of concerning feet, knees, hips or back. And this is why I perhaps a bit stubbornly keep repeating that "high tech" shoes and technology actually can be something that keep your feet from being and becomming strong and healthy and pain free. __________________ K90, Gosen OG Micro 16, 23 kg. Last edited by Povl Carstensen : 03-14-2012 at 12:24 AM.

03-14-2012, 12:32 AM	#36
Povl Carstensen Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,014	Yes its not an exact science, so I think people should give their feet a chance, instead of being caught up in dogmatic treatment/high tech thinking. And if it does not work for them, fair enough. It worked for me. You can do exercices that strengthen your arches, but archsupport is a sure way for them to atrophy. __________________ K90, Gosen OG Micro 16, 23 kg.