U of Memphis tennis = U of Ireland tennis??

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by bluetrain4

I've never really cared much at all about foreign-born athletes playing for U.S. colleges. I still don't. It's fine with me.

But, I was just wondering, when and why did this start? Was there a particular rule that changed. Or was it just that some visionary coach saw this as a solution to be more competitive and other schools started to follow suit? I mean, it's not like it was needed. College tennis seemed to be fine. Even if the overall level was lower, it would have been lower across the board.

What was one of the first "good" (Top 30 maybe) teams to have a roster of at least half foreign athletes?

when was the turning point? I'm 39 and I remember following Big 10 tennis growing up in MN. Back then Michigan was the top team and Minnesota as often second or third. I do not remember seeing as many foreign athletes in the mid or late 80s, even early 90s. But, my memory could be failing me.

Of course there are student athletes who want to study at American universities, so it would never have surprised me that there would always be some. But, when did it become SO pervasive? And, while DI gets all the attention for this trend, isn't it just as pervasive, if not more so, in DII?

And, while we see foreign athletes in many college sports, did the trend ever catch fire in any other sport the way it did in tennis?

Interesting topic.

It exists in basically every sport other than football.

As for tennis, I'd put an approximate date of 1 year post Sampras losing the #1 ranking. Ultimately, US junior tennis tanked and foreigners passed us up in overall talent.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by hound 109

No the tennis alumni built the stadium, pays the coaches salary, pays for travel expenses & pays for the scholarships.

Former non-americans on tennis scholaraships started Sun Records, invented Memphis style BBQ & founded Fed Ex....so you see it's much better to give the scholarship to a 21 y/o Euro freshman (who couldn't hack it in the Euro pros) than to an 18 y/o from Nashville or Memphis.

You really need to get with the program. The tennis stadiums wouldn't be so full & we wouldn't have the lucrative college tennis TV contracts, so we can watch every weekend......without the 22 y/o sophomore non-americans on the court.

.

Similar to the silicon valley H1-B visa agruments (even if you may be just being sarcastic

And easy Pal! We know you're joking, but please don't mess with the Fedex founder dude ~ who is an outstanding retired Marine. Semper Fi!

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Would it be fair to say that according to this logic, state schools should not give athletic scholarships to out-of-staters?

If so, then it seems that state schools in only a few states, such as California, Florida, Texas, Georgia, the Carolinas.....and maybe a very few others......would be able to produce competitive teams.

Hard to contemplate what this would mean for football, basketball, hockey, baseball

Interesting counter-argument! Then again, we can always counter-counter-argue that at least the money are still spent mostly on US citizens.

Hey, we are still the "United" states helping out each other, right?

-- BTW, I must clarify that I'm not against "Euro imports" per se, I'm just wondering why there is no limit to the percentage of players allowed.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by Tennishacker

Wrong, many state schools support their athletic dept. from their general fund.

10 million from Cal-Berkeley's general fund helped fund their athletic dept. in a single year.

Amen. But Wow... 10 mil.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Good point. May be our state senators will be a better place to start, since we're talking about state money here.

But I still find it hard to believe NCAA will have no jurisdication over this. They change their sub-provisions fast all the time if they want to. Why not for this.

I surely hope that your grammar and logic are better in your letter to the state senators.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

I surely hope that your grammar and logic are better in your letter to the state senators.

You're welcome to point out what's wrong with the logic.
-- I doubt you can anyway.

Any citizen who has concerns about how our government spendings are spent are welcome to discuss with our elected officials, so I don't see anything wrong.

But PPle-ase... quit picking on poster's mispelling or oral-style grammar on a message board, you expect people to submit stuff here for nobel literature prize considerations??

BTW, if our state senators pick on his/her voters gramma/spelling like you do, he/she won't be long in his/her office.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Good point. May be our state senators will be a better place to start, since we're talking about state money here.

But I still find it hard to believe NCAA will have no jurisdication over this. They change their sub-provisions fast all the time if they want to. Why not for this.

NCAA has jurisdiction. As Clark said, the legality of limiting foreigners is in doubt. The following has been posted up many times before, but no problem if you missed it:

8. Does the NCAA limit the number of international student-athletes that can receive scholarships on American collegiate varsity tennis teams?

There are no NCAA limits on international student-athletes. There could be significant, if not insurmountable, legal hurdles for the NCAA to try to limit the number of international student-athletes that can receive scholarships on American varsity collegiate tennis teams. An early attempt by the NCAA to do this in the 1970’s in track was deemed discriminatory. Several respected experts have recently advised the USTA that the situation is the same pertaining to tennis and other varsity sports today. Neither the USTA (the governing body of tennis in the U.S.) nor the ITA (the governing body of varsity college tennis) has jurisdiction to institute such a prohibition or limitation on its own. At its own discretion, however, any individual college or university could explore its options in this regard. Certainly, the USTA encourages individual coaches, colleges, and universities to actively recruit outstanding young Americans. Further, it should be noted that there have been a number of highly successful collegiate varsity teams comprised of all American players, including some that have won NCAA championships.

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/U...INAL_CLEAN.pdf

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by PaulC

You're welcome to point out what's wrong with the logic.
-- I doubt you can anyway.

Any citizen who has concerns about how our government spendings are spent are welcome to discuss with our elected officials, so I don't see anything wrong.

But PPle-ase... quit picking on poster's mispelling or oral-style grammar on a message board, you expect people to submit stuff here for nobel literature prize considerations??

BTW, if our state senators pick on his/her voters gramma/spelling like you do, he/she won't be long in his/her office.

We have a democratic senate and democratic president. Good luck getting a conservative agenda like limiting foreign athletic scholarships in the near future.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by PaulC

You're welcome to point out what's wrong with the logic.
-- I doubt you can anyway.

Any citizen who has concerns about how our government spendings are spent are welcome to discuss with our elected officials, so I don't see anything wrong.

But PPle-ase... quit picking on poster's mispelling or oral-style grammar on a message board, you expect people to submit stuff here for nobel literature prize considerations??

BTW, if our state senators pick on his/her voters gramma/spelling like you do, he/she won't be long in his/her office.

I think your state senators will not be in office very long if they vote to ban/limit athletic scholarships for persons from out-of-state.

Can't prove it, but I believe fat cat donors to state college athletic programs are core political contributors as well.

I wonder if a state senator who proposes to make State U less competitive in athletics compared to other colleges.....by limiting athletic scholarships to in-state kids....would be getting many checks from fat cat athletic department donors

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

I think your state senators will not be in office very long if they vote to ban/limit athletic scholarships for persons from out-of-state.

Can't prove it, but I believe fat cat donors to state college athletic programs are core political contributors as well.

I wonder if a state senator who proposes to make State U less competitive in athletics compared to other colleges.....by limiting athletic scholarships to in-state kids....would be getting many checks from fat cat athletic department donors

No, I won't propose limiting scholarships to all out-of-state players, just non-US citizens. Period.

Example: Memphis hoop is doing pretty well without those crazy tall Euro centers

If EVERYBODY is not allowed more than 2 or 3 international players, this will actually level the play field a bit for those not-so-rich state schools who can't afford that many of these scholarships.

I am pretty certain that there are NOT many "fat-cat donors" who care about their college tennis programs AND wants to keep international players THAT much that will get pissed off by this - Not even for Memphis, I checked

Football maybe, but we got no Euro football players, Aussie kickers are good but are really not necessities

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

We have a democratic senate and democratic president. Good luck getting a conservative agenda like limiting foreign athletic scholarships in the near future.

State senate. NOT U.S. Senate:
http://www.legislature.state.tn.us/senate/members/

(Tennesse is Republican land traditionally, so should not be a problem

It's not quite a federal level issue yet, unless it is dealing with immigration issues.

BTW, I am an independent voter and considered myself a moderate liberal or moderate conservative depends on issues.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

NCAA has jurisdiction. As Clark said, the legality of limiting foreigners is in doubt. The following has been posted up many times before, but no problem if you missed it:

8. Does the NCAA limit the number of international student-athletes that can receive scholarships on American collegiate varsity tennis teams?

There are no NCAA limits on international student-athletes. There could be significant, if not insurmountable, legal hurdles for the NCAA to try to limit the number of international student-athletes that can receive scholarships on American varsity collegiate tennis teams. An early attempt by the NCAA to do this in the 1970’s in track was deemed discriminatory. Several respected experts have recently advised the USTA that the situation is the same pertaining to tennis and other varsity sports today. Neither the USTA (the governing body of tennis in the U.S.) nor the ITA (the governing body of varsity college tennis) has jurisdiction to institute such a prohibition or limitation on its own. At its own discretion, however, any individual college or university could explore its options in this regard. Certainly, the USTA encourages individual coaches, colleges, and universities to actively recruit outstanding young Americans. Further, it should be noted that there have been a number of highly successful collegiate varsity teams comprised of all American players, including some that have won NCAA championships.

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/U...INAL_CLEAN.pdf

Thanks Man. Great quote.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by PaulC

State senate. NOT U.S. Senate:
http://www.legislature.state.tn.us/senate/members/

(Tennesse is Republican land traditionally, so should not be a problem

It's not quite a federal level issue yet, unless it is dealing with immigration issues.

BTW, I am an independent voter and considered myself a moderate liberal or moderate conservative depends on issues.

The NCAA is the governing body. If you want to take the issue up with your state legislature in regards to your state's schools...knock your socks off. I would assume you'll get heavy push back from athletic departments, presidents, and liberal politicians. You are basically asking them to accept a competitive disadvantage mandate against the rest of the country's schools. Limiting the recruiting pool to yourself when others have an unlimited pool of candidates.

This country loves the underdog, but I can't envision this being successful just because Johnny down the street didn't get to play tennis at State U. Frankly, if it was impacting football (maybe basketball) you'd have a better shot.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by PaulC

No, I won't propose limiting scholarships to all out-of-state players, just non-US citizens. Period.

Example: Memphis hoop is doing pretty well without those crazy tall Euro centers

If EVERYBODY is not allowed more than 2 or 3 international players, this will actually level the play field a bit for those not-so-rich state schools who can't afford that many of these scholarships.

I am pretty certain that there are NOT many "fat-cat donors" who care about their college tennis programs AND wants to keep international players THAT much that will get pissed off by this - Not even for Memphis, I checked

Football maybe, but we got no Euro football players, Aussie kickers are good but are really not necessities

If your proposal is to limit only the number of athletic scholarships granted to foreigners, but not to out-of-staters, then your state tax argument is eviscerated.

A scholarship for someone holding a non-US passport costs a school the same as a scholy for a person from out-of-state.

So there would need to be a new rationale. Nationalism? Protection from foreign (tennis) competition? The future of US tennis?

You'll need something to persuade Republican governors such as Rick Perry of Texas and Bill Haslam of Tennessee....and their respective legislatures........ to want to make the Longhorns and Volunteers/Tigers, respectively, less competitive.

(No disrespect for Texas or Tennessee suggested or implied, these are just two of many possible hypothetical examples)

[JLyon]

so why exactly are you picking on Memphis, when 90% of the Universities do the same thing? Did your kid not make the team?

[Clemson_tennis]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Example: Memphis hoop is doing pretty well without those crazy tall Euro centers

Football maybe, but we got no Euro football players, Aussie kickers are good but are really not necessities

These are bad arguments. There are tons and tons of young kids in the USA who play basketball and football. By far the top nation in each sport. The USA is probably the 3rd biggest tennis nation right now(behind Spain and France) but there are tons of other countries who are not far behind.

I actually feel good that so many non-Americans want to come here. They know and understand how good our college system is. I have some personal interaction with the Clemson team and the Madens often talk about how good the US college tennis system is. Meza and Wibowo aren't going back to their countries after college they will stay in the USA to work.

[floridatennisdude]

As for Memphis, they have Mark Finnegan on as an asst coach. He played at Memphis til 2004 and I would assume still is well connected in Ireland. Hence, their current pipeline of Irish and English talent. Being an alum, I assume he has great connectivity with the recruits out of Great Britain being able to act as an example of what his education and experience provided for him.

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by PaulC

No, I won't propose limiting scholarships to all out-of-state players, just non-US citizens. Period.

Example: Memphis hoop is doing pretty well without those crazy tall Euro centers

If EVERYBODY is not allowed more than 2 or 3 international players, this will actually level the play field a bit for those not-so-rich state schools who can't afford that many of these scholarships.

I am pretty certain that there are NOT many "fat-cat donors" who care about their college tennis programs AND wants to keep international players THAT much that will get pissed off by this - Not even for Memphis, I checked

Football maybe, but we got no Euro football players, Aussie kickers are good but are really not necessities

Basketball and football are not fair comparisons for tennis. The recruiting pool for those sports is 90-99% domestic. And, those sports generate pretty much all the revenue for athletic departments.

The schools that would be hurt the most by limiting recruiting pools domestically would be the smaller conference schools. They could not be competitive with the Pac12, ACC, SEC, etc if they had to compete directly for the top US born talent. There simply isn't enough talent to go around.

Boosters do have more of an impact than what you are giving credit for. Any donations to non-revenue sports are like finding gold. But, no one wants to support a perennial doormat. I would foresee ADs across the country eliminating tennis all together if they were in an environment where over half (guesstimating) the recruiting talent pool was forbidden. Most would assume not allocate resources to a sport where there is little chance of fielding a competitive team. It would basically become club level and just not interesting.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude

As for Memphis, they have Mark Finnegan on as an asst coach. He played at Memphis til 2004 and I would assume still is well connected in Ireland. Hence, their current pipeline of Irish and English talent. Being an alum, I assume he has great connectivity with the recruits out of Great Britain being able to act as an example of what his education and experience provided for him.

Maybe someone will propose a limitation on foreign coaches! After all, Finnegan's job could have gone to a fine son or daughter of Tennessee

[floridatennisdude]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Maybe someone will propose a limitation on foreign coaches! After all, Finnegan's job could have gone to a fine son or daughter of Tennessee

Yea, businesses love having the government limit their pool of candidates on their behalf. Lol.