Henin's Onehanded Backhand...

[nat75]

Originally Posted by BeHappy

Pretty much, since Federer got famous they customized his pro staff 6.0.85 and mass marketed it.

Any good source to read more about it?? I can't imagine hitting hard with an old racket and tolerating all the vibration. Let's not talk about the smaller sweet spot.

[Moose Malloy]

If Serena only saw Justine after she initiated the service motion, she could have stopped it before ball contact.

If she already made ball contact before sighting Justine's gesture, it should not have hindered her serve.

Here all I am saying is Justine might have felt Serena ignored her request and tried to score an easy point. Then it is easy to see why Justine felt justified in lying to the referee in order to deny Serena another free serve.

you really haven't seen ever seen players continue to hit their serves once they begin their motion even when their opponent says something/holds up a hand etc? or some other delay? like an umpire saying, 'wait, please?'

I've probably seen that a hundred times over the years. it was perfectly normal what serena did & its pretty bizarre to think that henin thought that serena was trying to get an easy point(that would mean in that brief moment when Serena started her motion, she expected the umpire not to see Henin & was then trying to win the point after she saw that? uh, ok. I'm sure she was expecting the usual, 'wait, please' from the umpire that has happened hundreds of time when a returner asks for time when they aren't ready after a server has started their motion)

it's not easy to stop your serve motion once you start it, and what's the point in not stopping, you know the point is dead once your opponent holds you up anyway. the players that don't hit their serves when that happens often awkwardly stop mid motion/try to catch the ball etc. that can be kind of jarring.

look at edberg continuing to hit his serve when becker audibly says something at '88 Queens(umpire made a major error in not giving Edberg a 1st serve, just another 2nd serve - he then double faulted. and Becker was criticized quite a bit for gamesmanship at the time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjZnLWogiwQ&t=7m44s

[rh310]

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy

it's not easy to stop your serve motion once you start it
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I think what you mean is "it's easier to continue the serve motion to completion rather than stop it in mid-serve."

[rh310]

Originally Posted by nat75

Just watch the Davenport-Sabatini matches from the US Open 1993, Amelia Island 1994 and YEC 1994 and tell me she's just slicing it back. Lindsay was heavier though and that could has been a liability then.

Thanks for the reference matches. Amelia Island and the 1994 YEC (that was still on indoor carpet at MSG then, if I remember correctly) would not be as strong an example, because both of those surfaces are slow.

But if Sabatini was dealing with Davenport clocking the crap out of the ball to her BH and was driving through it, then she should at least be on the short list of stellar women's 1HBH.

The Williams sisters in their peak were on a league of their own so that is not the standard to measure all the players. I think Sabatini with her heavy spin and her touch would give the current players a lot of trouble except for her very very questionable 2nd serve.

Henin did pretty well with her 1HBH against the Williams sisters. I'm sure there are examples where she didn't, but matches I remember seeing she could hang at least, and could win more than once.

[norbac]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

I think I know what you're referring to, usually the down-the-line shot when she doesn't have much time to prepare. A lot of players do this, though I haven't really seen Federer do this.

I think it's a sign of arming the ball. It's definitely not her normal shot.





Federer uses a conventional Eastern. Henin used an Extreme Eastern, her knuckle rolled back by a half bevel.

Can't recall having seen Gasquet, Federer, Wawrinka, or Haas do it....and if they have, they certainly don't do it as often as Henin did it.

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by cluckcluck

You're kidding me right? The majority of backhands I've seen so far at the FO on the women's side are moonballs. It's a joke.

LOL the women hit far flatter than the men do. Stosur is one of the few WTA players who hit the ball with heavy topspin.

In terms of aesthetics, I think that Henin's backhand probably looked 'prettier' during the earlier stages of her career, but it was still wreaking havoc on the tour back then. Commentators were waxing lyrical about it at the 2001 French Open and Wimbledon tournaments. Still an amazing shot throughout her career.

Her return of serve was very good for a one hander (Mauresmo's or Sabatini's backhand returns really didn't come close), her slices and drop shots were every effective, and it was an excellent rally shot on all surfaces.

Another reason why I rated Henin's backhand over Mauresmo's is that Mauresmo often used to hit cross court with her backhand too much and be scared to hit it down the line, while Henin's was to happy to hit in either direction. Mauresmo's cross court backhand may have been slightly better than Henin's, but Henin's backhand down the line was clearly better.

At her peak from 2003-2007 she had arguably the best forehand on the tour and one of the top 3 backhands.

[nat75]

Originally Posted by rh310

Thanks for the reference matches. Amelia Island and the 1994 YEC (that was still on indoor carpet at MSG then, if I remember correctly) would not be as strong an example, because both of those surfaces are slow.

But if Sabatini was dealing with Davenport clocking the crap out of the ball to her BH and was driving through it, then she should at least be on the short list of stellar women's 1HBH.



Henin did pretty well with her 1HBH against the Williams sisters. I'm sure there are examples where she didn't, but matches I remember seeing she could hang at least, and could win more than once.

Gaby had to deal with Steffi's forehand most of her career. Most of the rallies where Gaby bh agaisnt Steffi's inverted forehand.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by nat75

How would you know how they would hit with a 2hbh??

Because it is known that rackethead speed potential is higher with a 1hbh, in large part because it is a longer stroke, and also because it is a straight-arm pull-style stroke. (Federer has such a big forehand because of such a straight-arm pull style.)

Thus, it is one way that short players can "catch up" to taller, stronger players with 2hbhs. Take away the 1hbh, you take away that advantage.


Do you know of any short pros who have big 2hbhs? Maybe there are, I don't know...

Originally Posted by nat75

And Sabatini and Mauresmo are both 5'9'' and they have pretty neat backhands, havent they?? Even on par or better than Henin's.

I never said average/tall players can't hit a good 1hbh. After all, Kuerten was 6'3".

What I am saying is the power advantage of a 1hbh over the 2hbh is greater for small people, assuming the proper grip is used. In other words, had Henin, Sabatini and Maursemo all used the 2hbh, most likely it would be Henin with the biggest drop in power.

[Limpinhitter]

I prefer Billie Jean King's 1hb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhwlK...ailpage#t=113s

[Backhanded Compliment]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

Because it is known that rackethead speed potential is higher with a 1hbh, in large part because it is a longer stroke, and also because it is a straight-arm pull-style stroke. (Federer has such a big forehand because of such a straight-arm pull style.)

Thus, it is one way that short players can "catch up" to taller, stronger players with 2hbhs. Take away the 1hbh, you take away that advantage.


Do you know of any short pros who have big 2hbhs? Maybe there are, I don't know...

There are lots of them; Michael Chang, Jimmy Connors etc.

Honestly I think it takes more strength to hit a one hander with authority... it wasnt till I filled out that I realized more of the stroke's potential. I was a twig till age 29 or so.

[pmerk34]

Originally Posted by Backhanded Compliment

There are lots of them; Michael Chang, Jimmy Connors etc.

Honestly I think it takes more strength to hit a one hander with authority... it wasnt till I filled out that I realized more of the stroke's potential. I was a twig till age 29 or so.

You know that is an interesting point. Even with weight training I was never a strong guy and I have naturally skinny wrists/forearms and thus my one handers is a struggle. There was a player on my HS team who had naturally thick forearms and was a strong kid and he could rip one handers. I also will sometimes see more muscular club players some who are a bit overweight who can just cream one handers as well.

Technique or no technique it's still amazing how Federer blasts one handers with his "twig" forearms....

[Gizo]

It's an interesting point about more 'short' players on the WTA tour using a one backhand than the taller ones.

The one hander does offer advantages for dealing with low balls, but then again most of the surfaces are higher bouncing nowadays, and on grass bad bounces aren't any near as common as they used to be.

For the one hander, a player's athleticism, court positioning and footwork are even more important for them to be able to execute it properly.

Henin and Mauresmo were two of the best athletes on the tour and were excellent movers on every surface, and Henin's footwork was the best by a considerable distance. She was usually exactly where she needed to be to launch into it.

Many of the taller players (with the exception of Venus and Dementieva in recent times) have been slow and clumsy movers, so they wouldn't be able to make proper use of a one hander as they would struggle with the court positioning.

A very tall British girl Naomi Broady who is 1.88m tall has a one handed backhand, but it is a pretty big weakness partially due to her lack of athleticism and mobility. Far too often she has to slice it because she is not in the right position to hit a topspin backhand. Molik's one hander, while better than Broady's also was a liability for similar reasons.

[suwanee4712]

Best womens one handed backhand might be Henin's. I think hers would have been very good in any era. Though my favorite one hander belonged to Catarina Lindqvist. I would have ranked hers first but her slice wasn't good enough for that. Much like early Lendl her backhand was 90% top and not enough versatility.

Another almost #1 backhand would be Mandlikova's. She often spanked winners during baseline rallies like most people hit forehands. But her slice sometimes wasn't penetrating enough which hurt her on many approaches vs. Evert. Her down the line shot was sheer beauty.

Goolagong's was gorgeous and should be mentioned. Her birds nest backhand was baffling.

Also I will mention Martina simply because her slice was so good at setting her up. Only Novotna's crosscourt slice (though less effective) can approach how penetrating Martina's slice could be.

[nat75]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

Because it is known that rackethead speed potential is higher with a 1hbh, in large part because it is a longer stroke, and also because it is a straight-arm pull-style stroke. (Federer has such a big forehand because of such a straight-arm pull style.)

Thus, it is one way that short players can "catch up" to taller, stronger players with 2hbhs. Take away the 1hbh, you take away that advantage.


Do you know of any short pros who have big 2hbhs? Maybe there are, I don't know...


I never said average/tall players can't hit a good 1hbh. After all, Kuerten was 6'3".

What I am saying is the power advantage of a 1hbh over the 2hbh is greater for small people, assuming the proper grip is used. In other words, had Henin, Sabatini and Maursemo all used the 2hbh, most likely it would be Henin with the biggest drop in power.

Ummmm...it's hard to assume which one would have the better 2hbh since it depends on the strengh and ability you have on your non dominant hand more than anything else.
When I think about how a short woman usually plays I think about ASV or Amanda Coetzer more anyone else. Defenders who would feel more comfortable with a 2hbh than a 1hbh. Of course it would be much harder for somebody like Lindsay Davenport to play with a 1hbh due to the lack of speed.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Backhanded Compliment

There are lots of them; Michael Chang, Jimmy Connors etc.

Honestly I think it takes more strength to hit a one hander with authority... it wasnt till I filled out that I realized more of the stroke's potential. I was a twig till age 29 or so.

I don't think so. It takes practice learning how to wield the weight of the racquet and use it effectively. But, not strength. If you are using strength to hit a 1hb, then your technique is flawed and your shot is very limited.

[Leelord337]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I prefer Billie Jean King's 1hb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhwlK...ailpage#t=113s

who knew billy jean had such an awesome 1hbh, like a female gasquet.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by Backhanded Compliment

There are lots of them; Michael Chang, Jimmy Connors etc.

When I was thinking "short", I was thinking under 5'8", regardless of gender. Of course, not many ATP players fit that description.

In any case, I never thought of Michael Chang as having a "big" backhand, "big" as in "powerful."

Originally Posted by Backhanded Compliment

Honestly I think it takes more strength to hit a one hander with authority... it wasnt till I filled out that I realized more of the stroke's potential. I was a twig till age 29 or so.

Originally Posted by pmerk34

You know that is an interesting point. Even with weight training I was never a strong guy and I have naturally skinny wrists/forearms and thus my one handers is a struggle. There was a player on my HS team who had naturally thick forearms and was a strong kid and he could rip one handers. I also will sometimes see more muscular club players some who are a bit overweight who can just cream one handers as well..

I agree with Limpin here. Good technique should overcome most problems.

However, strong arms can still help, especially when bailing you out of an awkward position. Strength is good, I'm just saying it's not necessary for a good 1hbh.

Originally Posted by pmerk34

Technique or no technique it's still amazing how Federer blasts one handers with his "twig" forearms....

Yup.

Originally Posted by Gizo

It's an interesting point about more 'short' players on the WTA tour using a one backhand than the taller ones.

Oh, another shortie 1-hander (retired 2007), Anna Smashnova, 5'2", Extreme Eastern backhand grip. Peaked at 15th. Unfortunately, no clean footage of her playing. Here's one though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOdiE5k0Qk4

Originally Posted by nat75

Ummmm...it's hard to assume which one would have the better 2hbh since it depends on the strengh and ability you have on your non dominant hand more than anything else.

Of course we don't know these hypotheticals with certainty. But if you had to bet money on which one would have the least powerful 2hbh, which would it be?

Even you said "it depends on strength," and you also agree that smaller women typically have less strength than larger women. So if that's all we have to go on, the best bet sounds like Henin having the weakest 2hbh, no?


In addition, I wonder if height itself is at least as important as strength. A taller person hits balls that are relatively lower and therefore can more comfortably generate topspin with pace. That same shot will be higher for a short person, and a 1hbh with an extreme grip can generate a lot of topspin with pace, even on high balls, without needing much strength.

[nat75]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

When I was thinking "short", I was thinking under 5'8", regardless of gender. Of course, not many ATP players fit that description.

In any case, I never thought of Michael Chang as having a "big" backhand, "big" as in "powerful."







I agree with Limpin here. Good technique should overcome most problems.

However, strong arms can still help, especially when bailing you out of an awkward position. Strength is good, I'm just saying it's not necessary for a good 1hbh.




Yup.




Oh, another shortie 1-hander (retired 2007), Anna Smashnova, 5'2", Extreme Eastern backhand grip. Peaked at 15th. Unfortunately, no clean footage of her playing. Here's one though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOdiE5k0Qk4





Of course we don't know these hypotheticals with certainty. But if you had to bet money on which one would have the least powerful 2hbh, which would it be?

Even you said "it depends on strength," and you also agree that smaller women typically have less strength than larger women. So if that's all we have to go on, the best bet sounds like Henin having the weakest 2hbh, no?


In addition, I wonder if height itself is at least as important as strength. A taller person hits balls that are relatively lower and therefore can more comfortably generate topspin with pace. That same shot will be higher for a short person, and a 1hbh with an extreme grip can generate a lot of topspin with pace, even on high balls, without needing much strength.

Like i said it's impossible to know who would have the better 2hbh because we don't know the ability they have with their non dominant hand. The non dominant hand is the one that commands the stroke.

[nat75]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

I don't think so. It takes practice learning how to wield the weight of the racquet and use it effectively. But, not strength. If you are using strength to hit a 1hb, then your technique is flawed and your shot is very limited.

Females certainly need strength. Have you seen Mauresmo's, Sabatini's, Henin's or even BJK's arms?

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by nat75

Like i said it's impossible to know who would have the better 2hbh because we don't know the ability they have with their non dominant hand. The non dominant hand is the one that commands the stroke.

If we roll a dice (6-sided), it is "impossible to know" whether the number will be below 2 or above 2. However, I would place my bet on above 2.

It is rare we can predict things with 100% certainty, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't make educated guesses.

Originally Posted by nat75

Females certainly need strength. Have you seen Mauresmo's, Sabatini's, Henin's or even BJK's arms?

Need strength?

Here's Justine in 2000, before her workout craze.



Up to this point she (according to Wikipedia):

- won the junior girl's singles title at the French Open.

- regularly reached the late rounds of international competitions

- won five International Tennis Federation tournaments by the end of 1998.

- began her professional career on the WTA tour in May 1999

- became only the fifth player to win her debut WTA Tour event.

- defeated three top 50 players on the road to the title


I don't think you need strong arms to have a good 1hbh.

Strength helps, which is why she began working out. But "need"? No.