How to learn the straight arm forehand?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by connico

To remain consistent and to learn is to do things repetively. Adjusting on the fly to compensate is a bad thing.. you know that right?

So whether you hit with bent arm or a straight arm you still need to work on your foot work and should not be adjusting your arm position on the fly.

Unless your a professional tennis player or a high level tennis player, adjusting on the fly can only lead to disaster.

So which is more difficult to learn and which is done more often for amateur players? Adjusting on the fly or achieving near perfect footwork so adjusting isn't necessary?

if the straight arm is easier to learn / consistent then why are there so many 'how to learn the straight arm threads' and not any 'how to learn bent arm threads? How come an overwhelming majority of amateurs and pros use a bent arm?

And no, i have nothing against a straight arm.

[connico]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

So which is more difficult to learn and which is done more often for amateur players? Adjusting on the fly or achieving near perfect footwork so adjusting isn't necessary?

if the straight arm is easier to learn / consistent then why are there so many 'how to learn the straight arm threads' and not any 'how to learn bent arm threads? How come an overwhelming majority of amateurs and pros use a bent arm?

And no, i have nothing against a straight arm.

Most videos I see are straight arm videos - you know those how to forehand videos. Most of the kids that I teach are straight arm and its not like im forcing them to do straight arm, its just natural for them. I let them do whats natural to themselves.

Adjusting on the fly is easier to do, but from my experience it doesnt really help people learn because they are consistently adjusting on the fly, and doing stuff to thier swing. I don't encourage a kid to over reach or just crowd his hitting zone and adjust for it. I encourage them to be at the right approximate distance and to deliver the racquet to the contact point.

Foot work doesnt have to be near perfect. Footwork is footwork, you put yourself in the right position to hit the ball. It should come naturally. Once your feet are in the right position your body adjust.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by connico

Most videos I see are straight arm videos - you know those how to forehand videos.

most how to videos on youtube are definitely not straight arm unless you are only watching fed and nadal videos. all the how to vids always mention and demonstrate the double bend structure. In fact I don't think i've ever seen even one how to video that demonstrates by using a straight arm or says 'extend your elbow like this so your arm is straight' unless the video was geared to teaching the straight arm specifically. Do you have any of those videos bookmarked or can you show me one?

how many pros can you name right now that use a straight arm? I'll bet you can't name 5 without doing research. I can name only 4 off the top of my head and 1 or 2 that will occasionally use a straight arm like almagro.

I play tennis at several clubs, public parks and high schools about 5-6 days a week every week all year round. It's rare that i will see a straight arm. When I see someone doing a straight arm usually they are between 15 and 21 and they are trying to copy fed / nadal which is ok but still rare. And when i'm out playing i always look at every player on every court and check out their strokes.

[connico]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Do you have any of those videos bookmarked or can you show me one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNrw1...feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3G...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOXySV2IWFg

3 examples. I don't endorse them, not the way I would teach a forehand but there isn't much I would endorse on YouTube.

[Baloo]

Originally Posted by 1HBH Rocks

Watch Nadal and Federer...

The reason they hit with a straight arm is that they perform an arm extension in their take back while they pronate their forearm a bit. I've posted pictures of Federer's forehand in a few threads. I'll try to get them as they are commented with the actual anatomical terms which tells you exactly what movements he performs in each pictures.

I used to hit with a straight arm forehand. I spent the whole summer last year figuring out how I would get to hit it a la Federer. Of course, it worked fine. I was blasting the ball really hard and I had tons of spin... I spent so much time working on my footwork and shot placement that I was able to slam almost any ball I could get to. However, the timing and contact were really hard to get right and every other day I would be hitting very averagely. Kudos to my hitting partner who started hitting big himself and getting me into trouble, but it wasn't only about him playing well. It wasn't rare to play two or three great days and then have a poor day... and I had a one handed backhand, not to help! So both of my strokes used to be high maintenance.

But if you say that you have a good forehand right now, why not work on improving what you have instead of trying to change it all over? I recently got enough of trying to maintain a super high level of play to be aggressive all the time. Instead, I work on movements which are easier to duplicate. I have a two handed backhand since three weeks and I must have played a few thousands of them by now -- it's not yet a second forehand, but it evolves greatly. I started using the double bend and a genuine western grip and I'd say I'm hitting about as big as I used to, except with more spin.

And, tactically, instead of trying to end the point early, I think I'll get to build them one shot at a time, knowing I risk not to miss too many of them. If you really want an advice, getting grooved in a simpler movement will pay off in the long term; if you get to stop and play again after a while, your movement risks to be closer to its previous level if it's simpler and, throughout matches, you risk a lot less to ride roller coasters where you will hit either big or fail.

+1
I have straight arm FH technique and when it's "on" it's great when it's "off" it makes life very very frustrating. You don't have to be off by much either.

I would trade for a more consistent bent arm in a heartbeat.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by connico

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNrw1...feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-3G...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOXySV2IWFg

3 examples. I don't endorse them, not the way I would teach a forehand but there isn't much I would endorse on YouTube.

The first video he does say 'arm straight away from the body' in the beginning only to emphasize to absolute first timers to keep your arms away from your body while in the ready position and to not have your elbow scraping your ribs when you swing. I've seen all of his videos before. If you watch part 2 where he actually gets around to hitting a forehand you'll see he uses and demonstrates a double bend. He also uses only double bend in his other videos such as this one he has on the crossover step:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdsIFmVfjt0

The instructors in the 2nd video both use bent arm forehands. The one guy was demonstrating one facet of the brushing motion and exaggerating with a weird motion for illustration purposes as the other guy was addressing some point and he made his arm straight for some reason as he was being hand fed balls. It's kind of weird. When they start hitting live balls they are using dbl bend. I've seen all of the videos those 2 have as I am subscribed to both their mailing list and video channel. They both have bent arm forehands and always describe the double bend in all of their videos.
2 examples from them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TrKHZzetpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37qJfKoPVc

The 3rd video is a video discussing the technique of Federer and Verdasco! Both straight arm users. It's not a how-to video explaining how to hit a forehand.

[Migelowsky]

Article from Essential Tennis on Bent vs Straight arm:


http://essentialtennis.com/problog/2...arm-essential/

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by 1HBH Rocks

Indeed, Del Potro isn't the best model you can find..

Del Potro isn't the best model for who?

Anyone?

Fed/Nadal may be great models for people who have the time, frequent access to a ball machine, and who can put off the need to play well for many months (years?).

But for many people who are time/resource constrained, or who don't want to be out of competitive action for long, Del Potro's forehand is the most accessible straight-arm forehand.

It may actually be easier to learn than the standard, double-bend modern forehand.

And, as I said before, it offers the option of transitioning to a pronated takeback.

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

Del Potro isn't the best model for who?

Anyone?

Fed/Nadal may be great models for people who have the time, frequent access to a ball machine, and who can put off the need to play well for many months (years?).

But for many people who are time/resource constrained, or who don't want to be out of competitive action for long, Del Potro's forehand is the most accessible straight-arm forehand.

It may actually be easier to learn than the standard, double-bend modern forehand.

And, as I said before, it offers the option of transitioning to a pronated takeback.

Bevel, why would Del Potro be a good model? I actually think too many club players construct there backswing in a similar fashion to him.

[1HBH Rocks]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

Del Potro isn't the best model for who?

When you learn a basic movement, you don't necessarily need to be emulating a pro. His take back is pretty lengthy, rather disconnected from his unit turn and he doesn't reach optimal position to swing forward. If anything, it risks to be HARDER to be competitive with that. I told you... the simplest way to ensure a consistent contact with a high power swing is to pronate at the end of the take back -- end of the discussion. It's not harder to pronate or to supinate; what's hard is what you'll have to do with your racket head in the forward acceleration if you don't pronate.

[connico]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

snip

And you say you have no issues with straight arm??... yep sure...

[formula16]

had a go today, tried to implement some stuff you guys told me. It was a bit tough at first, i hit some double bends unconciously. Then i did a few shadow swings of the arm straightening out and tried to implement it to my hitting. When i timed it, it was sweet. But i think i have to get used to the timing of it.

Will have a few more gos and post results

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

imo it doesn't. With a bent arm you can extend or shorten the arm. With a straight arm you can only change it into a bent arm (which is no longer straight in a lot of cases) (giving a little room for interpretation of straight arm). with a straight arm if your footwork isnt great or the ball takes an unexpected bounce that puts the ball further away from you can't make the straight arm straighter. but with bent arm you are closer to the ball and can extend if need be.

Imo, the straight arm is not really any different technically than a bent arm. I mean, what if the ball is too far away from the bent arm? Are you not allowed to straighten it because then it'd become close to a straight arm? The amount of bend in the arm doesn't define the techniques.

It's just a preference of where you'd like to contact the ball that results from having one type of forehand technique which uses pronation in the takeback. Nobody should be trying to force themselves to hit with their arm straight. The straight arm should be a result of the contact point.

[connico]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Imo, the straight arm is not really any different technically than a bent arm. I mean, what if the ball is too far away from the bent arm? Are you not allowed to straighten it because then it'd become close to a straight arm? The amount of bend in the arm doesn't define the techniques.

It's just a preference of where you'd like to contact the ball that results from having one type of forehand technique which uses pronation in the takeback. Nobody should be trying to force themselves to hit with their arm straight. The straight arm should be a result of the contact point.

Agree. Its all preference and any good coach will understand that all players need to be comfortable with their stroke. Bio-mechanically no two bodies are the same. But if you want to move to a straighter arm forehand, than a longer extension is required.

The OP needs to think extension, reach and hitting way in front.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Imo, the straight arm is not really any different technically than a bent arm. I mean, what if the ball is too far away from the bent arm? Are you not allowed to straighten it because then it'd become close to a straight arm? The amount of bend in the arm doesn't define the techniques.

It's just a preference of where you'd like to contact the ball that results from having one type of forehand technique which uses pronation in the takeback. Nobody should be trying to force themselves to hit with their arm straight. The straight arm should be a result of the contact point.

I didn't say it was technically different but there are differences in contact points and other small differences.

All I'm saying is that most people use a bent arm and that a bent arm is easier to learn and a straight arm requires better timing. In reference to your own example, what if the ball is too far away for a straight arm?

And according to connico, adjusting your stroke 'leads to disaster'. But then again he also says most how-to videos teach a straight arm.

Originally Posted by connico

And you say you have no issues with straight arm??... yep sure...

As i read it, all he is saying is that the double bend is easier than a SA, and that it is not biomechanically inferior. And on both points, I agree. There are just too many GREAT DB forehands to argue it is. (inferior)

[connico]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

And according to connico, adjusting your stroke 'leads to disaster'. But then again he also says most how-to videos teach a straight arm.

and than again you say you have no issues with a straight arm forehand when clearly you do. Just because someone believes something different...

and if you the ball is to far for a straight arm, its to far for a bent arm... So you move your feet to the ball. But hey, going by your opinion we shouldn't work on foot work because its to hard... to difficult to work master perfect foot work, let alone a perfect swing.

Nothing is perfect. Reducing variables is essential in maintain consistency and a straight / straighter arm forehand helps with consistency.

[connico]

Originally Posted by chico9166

As i read it, all he is saying is that the double bend is easier than a SA, and that it is not biomechanically inferior. And on both points, I agree. There are just too many GREAT DB forehands to argue it is. (inferior)

Never said it was inferior.... You can use what you want to use, it matters not.

[TheCheese]

I think the straight arm does allow you to accelerate a little more since your arm is effectively longer. It's really not going to make or break your forehand though, obviously you can be good with either technique.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by chico9166

Bevel, why would Del Potro be a good model? I actually think too many club players construct there backswing in a similar fashion to him.

But I seriously doubt they are trying to emulate Delpo. They're probably deviating from his stroke at some point. You should have a Delpo takeback, followed by an X forward swing. It's a package deal, to some extent.

Think of it this way: There are tons of people who try (or tried) to emulate Federer or Nadal, and they probably had a worse experience.

I'm saying, for many/most people, Delpo is a better model than Fed or Nadal because his stroke is more simple than theirs: He does not turn his palm down on the take back.