Tennis recruiting rankings seriously flawed

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by tennis5

I know it was directed to TRN.

But, just some thoughts:

1) You can change your kids grade up until the minute they enter high school.
Once 9th grade starts, the clock is ticking.

2) I agree with you in that it would be nice if they posted birth dates because
some, well a lot, of training facilities/tennis clubs do give out scholarships and partial scholarships based on stars.
And, a lot, if not most of these places don't do a lot of hw.
So, your 6th grader who should be a 7th grader looks a lot better and gets the scholarship over your kid,
even though if they were the same grade,
your kid might be higher....
Get it.


3) I would like if TRN put in the birthdates too.
There is a simple computer program they could run to do birthdates by months without giving out the actual birthdates.

4) Many folks have complained, nice to hear another voice too.

What is strange for me is that TRN does seem to understand the unfairness of the new USTA reduced tournament system,
as they are advertising the opens now. ( one in GA same time as clay courts which is great for kids who didn't get into clays).

So, I am surprised they don't understand that folks want an honest, transparent system
where Johnny doesn't get a free ride based on an inflated star system because they played the system.

And while College coaches can look in the system and see the actual age come junior or senior year.....
By then, a lot of kids got screwed -
Kids do get affected even in High School when from the same grade -
the 5 star 9th grader gets the free scholarship for camp over the 4 star player 9th grader, but the 5 star is 20 months older.
The birth month 16 years and 4 months is not on the front page, so no one knows.......

And I am sure this will be labeled as "whining" etc by all the parents who have gamed the system and don't want their kid found out.
But, I am for honest, transparent systems.
Now, we could talk about self esteem issues when dad has to hold junior back to look good, but that should be another thread.

And remember the suggestion to TRN by our Florida Coach was to be voluntary and by month ( 16 years, and 1/4) so no actual birthdate is shown - good suggestions. That way, when free scholarships are handed out in middle school and high school, they actually go to the kid who has talent, not the parent who gamed the system.

If any scholarship-granting organization is depending on TRN........rather than their own application procedure....... to certify birthdates it says more about the organization than about TRN.

Can anyone do the Board a favor and tell us which organizations operate this way?

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by 10ismom

Mister bill,
I don't recall it is imperative to fill DOB before confirming grad yr. The loophole is there.
I don't ask to rank by age but to have other data eg. Year born or ?? so to double checked on grad year comparison. Can be even posted just birth year....therefore.... No coaches will compare 4 star/9th grade/14 yo with 5 star/reported 9 th grade/unreported 16 year old.

TRN does have other data. They do have birthdate.

It is in the private information section that coaches can see.

Is the issue here that other parents, players, strangers should be able to see tennis players' birthdays on the public overview page?

I can be persuaded, but someone has to give me a good reason first

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

If any scholarship-granting organization is depending on TRN........rather than their own application procedure....... to certify birthdates it says more about the organization than about TRN.

Can anyone do the Board a favor and tell us which organizations operate this way?

I guess I need to block your posts from now on.

It is just frustrating that your junior doesn't even play in the USTA system anymore,
and you continue to post comments to further erode the board's purpose which is to educate each other . Really a shame.

Every tennis club and major tennis facility goes by the star system for partial scholarship or full scholarship.
Maybe, Bolliteri and USTA have a large staff to sit there and go this one's birthdate is 19 months higher than this one,
but most clubs are not set up that way.

Are you trying to pull each name?
Why don't you actually do your own homework and be a part of the system, so you can properly educate and inform......

Oh that's right, your junior doesn't play in the system anymore.
Thanks for wasting more time.

Weren't you also one of the folks who posted here and said the new 2014 USTA changes wouldn't affect the juniors being seen by college coaches??? Of course, you had no idea what the changes were, but that is another story.
Nice to misinform folks.

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

TRN does have other data. They do have birthdate.

It is in the private information section that coaches can see.

Is the issue here that other parents, players, strangers should be able to see tennis players' birthdays on the public overview page?

I can be persuaded, but someone has to give me a good reason first

You're "SURE" TRN has the birthdate data to show coaches?

If that the case, coaches should see both claimed grad year and birthday.

Hope DALLAS and JULIE will reassure us on this.

IMO parents prob will falsely report grad year than lie about birthdate.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by 10ismom

You're "SURE" TRN has the birthdate data to show coaches?

If that the case, coaches should see both claimed grad year and birthday.

Hope DALLAS and JULIE will reassure us on this.

IMO parents prob will falsely report grad year than lie about birthdate.

It is an internal page that only college coaches that have an account can see.
So yes, college coaches can see the birthdate.

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by tennis5

It is an internal page that only college coaches that have an account can see.
So yes, college coaches can see the birthdate.

Thanks for the info.

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by tennis5

I guess I need to block your posts from now on.

It is just frustrating that your junior doesn't even play in the USTA system anymore,
and you continue to post comments to further erode the board's purpose which is to educate each other . Really a shame.

Every tennis club and major tennis facility goes by the star system for scholarship or full scholarship.

Are you trying to pull each name?
Why don't you actually do your own homework and be a part of the system, so you can properly educate and inform......

Oh that's right, your junior doesn't play in the system anymore.
Thanks for wasting more time.

Weren't you also one of the folks who posted here and said the new 2012 USTA changes wouldn't affect the juniors being seen by college coaches??? Of course, you had no idea what the changes were, but that is another story.
Nice to misinform folks.

Your personal attack says more about you than about me........or my child who you have misidentified......for which I am so glad!

Any organization that grants scholarships, I think, needs to verify age by requesting a birth certificate. I think they should not be relying on a third party such as TRN to verify age. If they are, I'm sticking to my opinion that this would be an issue for the organization rather than for TRN.

You asked "Are you trying to pull each name?" I don't know what that means.

No prob if you block my posts. In fact, I think you have said multiple times you would ignore me. Please, please do!

EDIT: Can anyone name a reputable scholarship-granting academy/club/facility that does not require proof of birthdate? Sincere question, not a challenge

[dallasoliver]

Originally Posted by 10ismom

Hi Dallas and Julie,
Since TRN does not include birth year or date of a player, what is your protocol to prevent manipulation of graduation year to gain edge on ranking and stars?

Hi 10ismom -

We do get these question a good bit. Let me explain what we do for graduation year - and for birthdates.

- We have pages available only to college coaches, and those pages do include birthdate information (along with academic information, contact information, etc.)

- Graduation years are something for which we have no data feed. We assign all kids a provisional graduation year based on their age, and we clearly mark those graduation years as provisional. (You have probably seen the yellow warning near the top stating, "Please Note: Analysis for this player is based on a provisional graduation year...")

- Graduation years get updated and confirmed when (1) a player/parent links to a profile and specifies the graduation year (which is required), (2) a college coach specifies the graduation year, or (3) we update the graduation year based on a news story or release - typically a college commitment article. We call these "confirmed graduation years", and we remove the provisional label once the year is confirmed.

- As you probably know, we review all profile updates, and the UI we use to accept changes calls out changes to graduation year. Modifications to a confirmed graduation year pop up additional panels, so we always look at these changes closely. Our current policy is to accept one change early in the process, because many kids/parents frankly don't know the graduation year if they are 6th or 7th graders. After one change, we lock the graduation year and require the player/parent to send us an email confirming the graduation year change. For questionable-looking changes (e.g., increasing or decreasing two classes), we sometimes require documentation from a school.

- There are times when parents complain about the graduation year of another player. E.g., "I know Johnny is a junior, but he just changed his class to sophomore." If we receive complaints like this, we investigate them and often contact the player and ask for documentation from the school.

So... these are our policies and procedures. As an aside, we do not think that there is a widespread problem. There are only a dozen or so requests to change graduation years each month, and we only get to the email confirmation step a couple of times per month.

I hope this sheds some light.

Kind regards,
Dallas

[dallasoliver]

Originally Posted by tennis5

And remember the suggestion to TRN by our Florida Coach was to be voluntary and by month ( 16 years, and 1/4) so no actual birthdate is shown - good suggestions. That way, when free scholarships are handed out in middle school and high school, they actually go to the kid who has talent, not the parent who gamed the system.

This was a good suggestion, and it is on our feature list. Our highest priority for quite some time now has been working on a new subscription level that will include new features (e.g., Ranking Analysis). It has been slow going due to ongoing operations issues, but the new subscription level is higher priority that all the other items on our list.

I think that we will display age by quarters at some point - it will be voluntary and displayed by quarter (e.g. 16 years, 3 months) - but it may still be a while.

Best,
Dallas

[dallasoliver]

Originally Posted by 10ismom

You're "SURE" TRN has the birthdate data to show coaches?

If that the case, coaches should see both claimed grad year and birthday.

Hope DALLAS and JULIE will reassure us on this.

IMO parents prob will falsely report grad year than lie about birthdate.

I mentioned it above, but, to be clear, we do show birthdate data to college coaches on the private page available only to coaches.

Best,
Dallas

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by dallasoliver

Hi 10ismom -

We do get these question a good bit. Let me explain what we do for graduation year - and for birthdates.

- We have pages available only to college coaches, and those pages do include birthdate information (along with academic information, contact information, etc.)...........
- Graduation years get updated and confirmed when (1) a player/parent links to a profile and specifies the graduation year (which is required),

Good morning Dallas,

Thanks for your reply.

When player/parent links to a profile to specify a graduation year, is it required, not just voluntary...to fill out a player's birthdate?
From what I read your above posts.....it is required to fill in date of birth when you link to a player profile. Am I correct?

I was questioning that because I'm just afraid that a person might put a "not so true" graduation year and elect to omit the birthday.

I don't care as much if the kid is really being held back (although I feel sorry for them if it is for tennis recruiting reason), because eventually they are competing with kids graduating the same year.

[playsmart]

It looks like the numbers posted this morning on TRN are not correct. Noticed a big shift in the ranking and when ckecked the activity the overall records don't match with the sum of matches. Seems to apply to all kids, just one example: http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=627986

It says overall records 55-22, but adding matches gives 49-24.

Was there any change in the calculations ?

[kme5150]

I actually feel sorry for Dallas and Julie that they have to deal with this issue over and over again. I guess it is the price they have to pay.

Tennisrecruiting.net is a TOOL that helps COLLEGE COACHES find players. Not for parents to feel better about a loss to a kid who is 18 months older than their son/daughter in the same grade. When they get to college they are going to potentially play kids that are 5 years older than them. Do you seriously think that a college coach cares if you are an 18 year old Freshman playing a 23 year old Senior? The answer is NO, they want the win, regardless of age or grade.

The only thing that posting the ages up for everybody to see is that you are going to help out the older players. If you want to put your child's age up for everybody to see you can add it to Player Bio page.

For the record, my son is young for his grade. Do we care? NO. Why don't we care? The coaches don't care.

Mitchell Frank was a Freshman this year at UVA. He played #3 for the most part. He was 38-2 on the season. EVERY player that he played was older than him. Do you think he felt better that the 2 losses he had were against older boys? NO, he didn't care about their age or grade.

For those parents that are going to talk to coaches. Do yourself a favor and don't say, "My son/daughter only lost two matches this year, but they were both 18 months older than him". It makes him/her sound like a coddled 6 year old and no coach in the country wants that.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but it is reality.

[10ismom]

Originally Posted by kme5150

I actually feel sorry for Dallas and Julie that they have to deal with this issue over and over again. I guess it is the price they have to pay.

Tennisrecruiting.net is a TOOL that helps COLLEGE COACHES find players. Not for parents to feel better about a loss to a kid who is 18 months older than their son/daughter in the same grade. When they get to college they are going to potentially play kids that are 5 years older than them. Do you seriously think that a college coach cares if you are an 18 year old Freshman playing a 23 year old Senior? The answer is NO, they want the win, regardless of age or grade.

The only thing that posting the ages up for everybody to see is that you are going to help out the older players. If you want to put your child's age up for everybody to see you can add it to Player Bio page.

For the record, my son is young for his grade. Do we care? NO. Why don't we care? The coaches don't care.

Mitchell Frank was a Freshman this year at UVA. He played #3 for the most part. He was 38-2 on the season. EVERY player that he played was older than him. Do you think he felt better that the 2 losses he had were against older boys? NO, he didn't care about their age or grade.

For those parents that are going to talk to coaches. Do yourself a favor and don't say, "My son/daughter only lost two matches this year, but they were both 18 months older than him". It makes him/her sound like a coddled 6 year old and no coach in the country wants that.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but it is reality.

Sorry....but you totally miss the point I was trying to make about preventing of manipulation of ranking on TRN. Please look at my post # 52.

For the record, I think that TRN has great unique ranking by class year. That is relevant to college recuiting and coaches. I totally agree.

The question, I tried to raise is about the grad year is fake. If parents are not required to report birthday but can just report the grad year.....then it is a loophole to someone to fraud it.

I should have deleted my post # 71 since you prob thought I was trying to make TRN to show the age to public.

I certainly don't care about ranking by age. USTA rank already has that.
I just want TRN to have stringent criteria to prevent player/parent manipulating the system.

[kme5150]

Players manipulate the system all the time.

I know 4 or 5 players right now who had a couple of hot tournaments and are just sitting back thinking that the coaches only care about the stars. It happens all the time.

You have to trust that the coaches know what they are doing.

Have a little faith.

As you can probably tell, the coaching market is very volatile. Most of the good coaches are doing a lot of homework on players before they are signing them.

[dallasoliver]

Originally Posted by 10ismom

When player/parent links to a profile to specify a graduation year, is it required, not just voluntary...to fill out a player's birthdate?

The short answer to your question is "Yes". The set of mandatory fields needed to link a TRN account to a player profile is:

- Complete Address
- Phone Number
- USTA Number
- Birthdate
- Graduation Year

Best,
Dallas

[dallasoliver]

Originally Posted by playsmart

It looks like the numbers posted this morning on TRN are not correct.

Was there any change in the calculations ?

We had an error in our ranking calculations yesterday. We have been working to address it.

Best,
Dallas

[dallasoliver]

Originally Posted by kme5150

Players manipulate the system all the time.

I know 4 or 5 players right now who had a couple of hot tournaments and are just sitting back thinking that the coaches only care about the stars. It happens all the time.

You have to trust that the coaches know what they are doing.

Have a little faith.

As you can probably tell, the coaching market is very volatile. Most of the good coaches are doing a lot of homework on players before they are signing them.

I agree with these sentiments. TRN is just one tool that college coaches use. From what you hear at college recruiting forums, the database of contact information available to coaches is the most important and most-used feature we have. We always recommend parent/players update as much information as they are comfortable sharing - updating this information can be done with a free account.

Best,
Dallas

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

Is the issue here that other parents, players, strangers should be able to see tennis players' birthdays on the public overview page?

I can be persuaded, but someone has to give me a good reason first

Yes, that is the issue. You see, if the birthdates are posted publicly, then when player A beats player B, player B's dad can make the excuse that player A is a certain age. Or, if player A is a 5-star in the class of 2015 and player B is a 4-star in the class of 2014, player B's dad can tell everyone that player A really ought to be in the class of 2014, in which case he would not be ranked any higher than player B.

If the age is a secret, then the age basis for excuse-making and *****ing and whining and putting down other players is not there for everyone to see.

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by kme5150

Tennisrecruiting.net is a TOOL that helps COLLEGE COACHES find players. Not for parents to feel better about a loss to a kid who is 18 months older than their son/daughter in the same grade.

That might be true, but threads on Talk Tennis are NOT for college coaches, and they ARE for parents to whine, complain, feel better about a loss, etc.