Steffi the only player (male or female) to have defended all the majors

[Steffi-forever]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Navratilova is the grass court GOAT. What reason is there to believe Steffi would do better on grass vs the grass GOAT than on decoturf with both in their primes. The Wimbledon H2H is more in Steffi's favor only since their meetings came in 88 and 89 when MN was even more aged and past her prime than she already was in 86 and 87, plus 1988 was a major slumping year for Navratilova, even by her past prime standards, probably her worst year of tennis after 1994. Wimbledon 89 was probably one of the best slams Graf ever played, above her usual level, and in her true best year of tennis she would ever produce.

Navratilova would probably dominate Graf even more thoroughly at Wimbledon in their mutual primes than the U.S Open, based on the simple fact that is Navratilova's most dominant surface and slam, and the place she is consdered best ever on. You also didnt mention the WTA Championships, where Navratilova the carpet/indoor GOAT would also have the edge.

A 30 year old Navratilova outplayed and should have beaten a prime Steffi in the 87 French Open final, only didnt due to a bad choke especialy in the first game she served for it with 2 double faults and 4 errors, so Steffi having the edge there prime on prime is questionable at best. Rebound ace is probably Graf's worst surface, and Navratilova didnt get to play there once during her prime, so who knows even there.

LOL What a washep up has been Navratilova was in those years. She was only the 6 times defending champs. at Wimbledon in '88, with a year of 70-7, 9 titles, and in '89 she was 73-7 with 8 titles. LOL

And it's 2-1 for Graf at Wimbledon. How can you assume Nav. would beat Graf there time and time again?

[Steffi-forever]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

I concur:

Tournament wins- Court 199, Navratilova 167, Evert 158, Graf 107
Most Australian Opens- Court
Most French Opens- Evert
Most Wimbledons- Navratilova
Most U.S Opens in Open Era- Evert
Most WTA Championships- Navratilova
Most Overall Slams- Court
Most Dominance- Navratilova
Most Longevity- Navratilova
Most Consistency- Evert
Most Accomplishments- Court
Best Doubles perfromances- Court and Navratilova
Best Combined Singles/Doubles performances- Court and Navratilova

Graf/Navratilova :

Steffi has more slams, more Australian Open, more French Open, more US Open, more consecutive weeks at #1, more weeks at #1, more year-ends at #1, more consecutive weeks in the top 2, more French Open-Wimbledon, more hardcourt slams, more little slams, a Golden Slam, won all the slams at least 4 times each, 13 straight slam finals, the best 2 years back-to-back in 88-89 winning 7 slams + a final..., defended all the slams 2 times each, won all the slams on all the surfaces 6 times each.

Navratilova has more wimbledon, more titles, better % for a season in '83. But Navratilova won half of her slams at Wimbledon, 12 out of 18 on grass.

[Steffi-forever]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

How many aliases does Joe Pike have?

FFS Steffi has more than 1 fan

[Steffi-forever]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

-Other than Seles in 91 and 92 facing no all time great in their primes when winning her slams from 1987 to 1999.

Evert was starting her 13th season on tour when Navratilova was entering her prime in '82, but Nav. was already past her prime in 87 so Graf had no competition. Makes perfect sense.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Steffi-forever

FFS Steffi has more than 1 fan

as a fellow Graf fan, may i say, welcome back Joe, if it is really you

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by abmk

no, you fail here .... hard courts are the most neutral surface as far as playing styles are concerned. Hence competition is the toughest ....

It is not the faults of Laver, Court, Connolly, and Budge that slams were played on grass or clay then. They won all the slams on the surfaces they were held in and thus won the Grand Slam. If one wants to get subjective the fact of the matter is the super all court and well rounded games of Laver and Court, probably the most complete players in history, would have been all that much tougher to beat on hard courts. As for Connolly her murderous and error proof ground game, probably the best in history considering the time she played in, would have been all that much tougher on hard courts too.

err, what a load of BS. federer didn't have weak competition at wimbledon, neither did rafa at the FO .....both faced full or near full fields ...... not the case with Court's slams at the AO , many of which were poorly attended

Just because they were "full fields" does not mean they were good ones. It is a well known fact Federer has no competition on grass, and likewise Nadal on clay. Who did Federer have to face on grass besides Nadal in 2007 and 2008 (and baby then grass mug Nadal in 2006 who should have been straight setted by Kendrick but rose through the nothing draw this eras nothing grass fields commonly produces to the final by some miracle). Andy Roddick his pigeon of pigeons, Sebastien Grosjean, Hewitt in the twilight of his years as a top player and another huge Federer pigeon, Richard Gasquet? As for Nadal on clay he only has to beat his pigeon Federer, Djokovic the last year or two, and other than that who, Nikolay Davydenko the hard courter and slam choker, Tommy Robredo, David Ferrer.

Margaret Court even with the half fields in Australia faced as much competition as that in atleast half of her wins. More specifically in comparision to Graf who did she face once Seles was stabbed? Sanchez Vicario who probably would have been a 1 slam winner without the stabbing and is considered less talented than even Sabatini, another 1 slam winner of the Graf era who had the misfortune to peak at the same time as Graf and Seles. Sabatini herself was on massive career decline by then and not a contender. The aging Naratilova was now reaching the point she wasnt even a contender anymore too. Capriati burnt out and was off the tour awhile. Fernandez was constantly injured and not contending ever again after the 93 French. So Sanchez, young erratic Pierce, headcase Novotna, and Conchita Martinez, that was it, until Hingis and a then grossly overweight Davenport began to emerge, and an overweight weaker Seles returned.

all subjective as to how much she would've won without the stabbing ....

Of course but the Seles stabbing is not just any what if. It is not a what if like a person getting injured or ill, or a personal problem. It is a one time situation that has never happened before in any sport, an athlete being injured in the coruse of battle with the intent to help another athlete. It undeniably casts a cloud over the beneficiary.

[BTURNER]

Of the seven women with potential for GOAT ( Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf) I just can't justify giving the final trophy to the woman with arguably the worst record of the seven on European red clay. Martina has just two majors on the red dirt, no Germans, no Italians or Madrid titles to mitigate. She was superb, no doubt, when at her very best ( read 1984). but Evert wasn't everywhere on the continent and Navratilova just did not come up with the goods often enough anymore than Evert did on grass . Therefore Graf who did on all surfaces, beats both for GOAT IMHO.

[DMan]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Of course but the Seles stabbing is not just any what if. It is not a what if like a person getting injured or ill, or a personal problem. It is a one time situation that has never happened before in any sport, an athlete being injured in the coruse of battle with the intent to help another athlete. It undeniably casts a cloud over the beneficiary.

Oh NadalAgassi GURL, I see you are back to your old wicked ways.

And for the record, there never has, and never will be a cloud over the "beneficiary" of this incident you refer to. Just you are attempt at a clever way of demeaning Graf. Something you've done for a long time. And funny, the longer these things are debated by experts, Graf's position only gets stronger (and no one ever talks about any "cloud".

[DMan]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Steffi could have become the greatest tennis player ever but a number of flaws prevent her ranking over the likes of Navratilova, Court, or Evert:

-Her major slump from 1990-1994, right in the middle of what should have been her prime.

I'd like to have a "major slump" for 5 years, the majority of which Steffi spent ranked #1.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Resulting in only 1 slam win in 1990, 1991, 1992, 1994, even with only Seles in 91 and 92 only as real competition.

Which of course begs the question, if Seles were Graf's only competition, just who was Seles' competition?!

As far as Graf "only" winning 1 major in 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1994.....shows you how high she set the bar.....a year in which she "only" wins 1 major and maintains the #1 ranking is a ......."slump."

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

1993 she won 3 slams but only due to horrendous chokes by Fernandez in the French Open final and Novotna in the Wimbledon final, so it might as well have been only 1 that year too.

Might as well.....but it wasn't. Graf won 3 of the 4 majors in 1993. That's a fact - even though you doing a poor job trying to refute and change the facts.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

She wasnt really in form even in 1993, losing multiple times to Sanchez early in the year,

Graf lost to Sanchez 2 in the first 5 months of the year (balanced by 3 wins. The first win was in the Miami final - a surprise win, but then again ASV was defending champ. The other ASV win was in Hamburg, 2 days after the stabbing. Graf was overcome with emotion at what happened. And of course she was the only player to take the time to visit Mons in hospital.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

being spanked by Seles in the Australian Open final, getting spanked by Conchita Martinez on fast carpet late that year,

"Spanked by Seles in the Australian Open?
"Spanked by Martinez in Philadelphia (so you're criticizing Graf's first and only career loss to world #4 Martinez at the end of a Graf 46 match win streak? I guess that is another demonstration of Graf not being "in form"

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

losing a set to a Maleeva sister in the U.S Open semis,

Yeah, BAd Steffi lost the opening set 6-4, and came back to win 6-1,6-0. How horrible of her! And Maleeva was in the top 10. Does make you wonder how come Seles had to struggle to beat #143 Kijimuta in the 4R of the French in 1992?

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

and even losing to Nicole Provis-Bradkte late that year.

That was a Fed Cup loss. Not counted towards rankings. And played the week after Wimbeldon.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

1988, 1989, 1995, and 1996 were her only great years of tennis.

-Her failure to gain the record at any of the 4 slam venues, or the overall slam record. That she failed to do this despite the advantage of the Seles stabbing is even more telling a mark against her.

This is a sickening comment. Because it upholds Seles as the standard bearer, when she was nothing of the kind. Because Seles missed a number of majors - which was her own fault - doesn't reflect poorly on Graf.

Court (Australian), Navratilova (Wimbledon), and Evert (French) had more more opportunities than Graf did to earn the most # of titles at those 3 majors.

And of course Graf had the audacity to win each major AT LEAST 4 times! Something no player has ever done!

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

-Worst of all her 4-1 record vs Navratilova at the U.S Open. Navratilova was out of her prime for 3 or 4 of those 5 matches, and Steffi in hers for 3 or 4 of the 5, making it an even more glaring flaw. This is also their most neutral meeting ground, carpet and grass favoring Martina, rebound ace and clay favoring Steffi.

Their US Open matchups were:
1985 SF (28 yo Martina vs 16 yo Steffi in her first ever major semi)
1986 SF (29 yo #1 Martina vs 17 yo Steffi.....thanks God Martina held on by a whisker to take that match)
1987 F 30 yo Martina upends recently new #1 Steffi
1989 Graf beats Navratilova comprehensively, winning 11 of the last 14 games.
1991 SF, 34 yo Martina stuns #1 Steffi 76,67,64 (in the worst match of Graf's career).

Martina was out of her prime in 1991. But who is to say she wasn't part of her prime in 1985-1989?

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

-Other than Seles in 91 and 92 facing no all time great in their primes when winning her slams from 1987 to 1999.

Am still wondering, since Graf faced no real competition other than Seles, just who was Mons competition. Surely you can't say MJ Fernandez, Novotna, Sanchez, and granny Navratilova.

[kiki]

...abmk remains unable to discuss....hey¡¡ 62,67 and 69, abmk, remember?

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

1993 she won 3 slams but only due to horrendous chokes by Fernandez in the French Open final and Novotna in the Wimbledon final, so it might as well have been only 1 that year too.

How do you expect not to lose credibility with statements like this?

[boredone3456]

Originally Posted by Steffi-forever

Graf/Navratilova :

Steffi has more slams, more Australian Open, more French Open, more US Open, more consecutive weeks at #1, more weeks at #1, more year-ends at #1, more consecutive weeks in the top 2, more French Open-Wimbledon, more hardcourt slams, more little slams, a Golden Slam, won all the slams at least 4 times each, 13 straight slam finals, the best 2 years back-to-back in 88-89 winning 7 slams + a final..., defended all the slams 2 times each, won all the slams on all the surfaces 6 times each.

Navratilova has more wimbledon, more titles, better % for a season in '83. But Navratilova won half of her slams at Wimbledon, 12 out of 18 on grass.

To add Martina also has over 1400 match wins, 9 straight years winning 10+ titles (Steffi only won 10+ titles in I think 4 or 5 years), won a major in singles in 3 different decades and made multiple major finals in 3 different decades. She also made 1 more major final then Steffi did, although steffi has a far superior win % in major finals ( something like 72-56 or something).

Its close between them. Martina was also decent on hardcourts despite during her career them being less present on the tour. She had 3 seasons where she went undefeated on hard (although one of those was only 12-0) and one where she went 30-2. Her career record on hard is like 298-50 or something. I am not 100% on all these numbers but Martina deserves to be right up there with Steffi. Its close. Both were phenominal women in their own ways.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by boredone3456

To add Martina also has over 1400 match wins, 9 straight years winning 10+ titles (Steffi only won 10+ titles in I think 4 or 5 years), won a major in singles in 3 different decades and made multiple major finals in 3 different decades. She also made 1 more major final then Steffi did, although steffi has a far superior win % in major finals ( something like 72-56 or something).

Its close between them. Martina was also decent on hardcourts despite during her career them being less present on the tour. She had 3 seasons where she went undefeated on hard (although one of those was only 12-0) and one where she went 30-2. Her career record on hard is like 298-50 or something. I am not 100% on all these numbers but Martina deserves to be right up there with Steffi. Its close. Both were phenominal women in their own ways.

It's a tad harder to win a super high percentage of those finals with two other potential GOAT nominees sharing your era. Evert did not do a ton of damage, in that stat with 4 wins over Martina in major finals, but Graf did the rest of the dirty work. No other potential GOAT candidate had that kind of luck.

[suwanee4712]

Originally Posted by BTURNER

Of the seven women with potential for GOAT ( Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Court, Evert, Navratilova, and Graf) I just can't justify giving the final trophy to the woman with arguably the worst record of the seven on European red clay. Martina has just two majors on the red dirt, no Germans, no Italians or Madrid titles to mitigate. She was superb, no doubt, when at her very best ( read 1984). but Evert wasn't everywhere on the continent and Navratilova just did not come up with the goods often enough anymore than Evert did on grass . Therefore Graf who did on all surfaces, beats both for GOAT IMHO.

I think Graf's record of at least 4 titles at each slam is her best argument for GOAT. Although that stat is mitigated by the fact that tennis in the 90's evolved into one big baseline slugfest in which surface mattered little to individual players. For example Steffi never faced a Wimbledon draw like Evert did in 1986 where she had to face 3 true serve and volleyers in a row much less what she faced in the 70's. Not saying Steffi couldn't come through that just that she never faced it.

Speaking of Chris, kudos to her for showing up on grass and putting up a very good record.

[suwanee4712]

As to Martina's clay record, Chris is often given the benefit of the doubt (as well she should) that the late 70's brought a de-emphasization of the French and the European clay tour which was largely struggling with facilities and attendence. I have little doubt that Martina could've won multiple titles in Berlin and Rome had she tried more during her prime. I think her first trip to Berlin in the 80's wasn't until 1986. Rome wasn't until 1987. If its a hole in her record its her own fault. But her French record (2 titles, 4 r/u) suggests that Martina's clay court prowess was considerable.

For all of her strengths, Martina's mix of power, speed, and the grace of her sliding was tops for me in terms of movement on clay. Her 1984 demolition of Chris was sheer beauty.

[NadalAgassi]

From 1982 to 1985 the belief was Martina's best on clay > Chris's best. The 1984 French final Chris didnt even play badly and still got destroyed. The 1985 French final the belief was Chris had to play out of her mind to beat a subpar Martina. In the 1986 French Chris was up and down all event, and actually played a bad first set of the final, and still came back to win over an in form Martina, so by 1986 this had obviously changed and Chris's best on clay > Martina's best again, but for several years before that it was not the case. For that to be so shows what a strong clay court Martina was. Plus the 1987 French where at 30 and past her prime she spanked Evert (granted Chris was even older but both were still playing strong tennis then) and then outplayed and should have beaten a prime soon to be #1 Graf on a surface Graf was supposed to dominate Martina but couldnt.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by DMan

I'd like to have a "major slump" for 5 years, the majority of which Steffi spent ranked #1.

Monica was the real #1 of 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1993, and Sanchez in 1994. Graf wasnt even the best player any of those years really. Computer rankings are often controversial (eg- Caroline Wozniacki). She did deserve the computer #1 in 1993 since Seles was unable to play after being nearly murdered by a crazed Graf fan in April, but the early part of the year when both Graf and Seles played showed who the best player that year was.

Which of course begs the question, if Seles were Graf's only competition, just who was Seles' competition?!

Who cares, this isnt a thread about Seles. She is just one of many reasons (her being stabbed, Martina and Chris being old when Steffi arrived on the scene, lack of greats or consistent threats) Steffi's competition was weak and she still couldnt dominate or even be a true #1 for more than 2 years in a row ever.

As far as Graf "only" winning 1 major in 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1994.....shows you how high she set the bar.....a year in which she "only" wins 1 major and maintains the #1 ranking is a ......."slump."

Not as high as Martina though who in years she won 2 slams like 1985 and 1987 was said to be in a "slump" by people.

Graf lost to Sanchez 2 in the first 5 months of the year (balanced by 3 wins. The first win was in the Miami final - a surprise win, but then again ASV was defending champ. The other ASV win was in Hamburg, 2 days after the stabbing. Graf was overcome with emotion at what happened. And of course she was the only player to take the time to visit Mons in hospital.

Graf emotional about the Seles stabbing, LOL! Please. Emotional with joy as she would have a free ride on tour for awhile. Sanchez as well, in fact even worse than Graf. Just look at how Sanchez celebrated with glee winning the Hamburg event days after the Seles stabbing, knowing her career would pick up steam with the women she was a useless 1-10 against gone (atleast Graf could compete with pre stabbing Seles, Sanchez was as useless as a dead mammel on the side of the road vs Seles), sickening.

"Spanked by Seles in the Australian Open?
"Spanked by Martinez in Philadelphia (so you're criticizing Graf's first and only career loss to world #4 Martinez at the end of a Graf 46 match win streak? I guess that is another demonstration of Graf not being "in form"

Martinez is a completely useless player on carpet. Just look at her WTA Championships record, no appearances in the semis despite being ranked top 3 for 4 years in a row during the epic low of the womens game after the Seles stabbing. Graf to lose 6-3, 6-3 to her pigeon on what is by FAR her worst surface (and one of Graf's best) is telling to her true form at the time.

As for the other part do you dispute Seles spanked Graf in the Australian Open final. The last 2 sets Seles won by 2 service breaks each, it wasnt even close.

Yeah, BAd Steffi lost the opening set 6-4, and came back to win 6-1,6-0. How horrible of her! And Maleeva was in the top 10. Does make you wonder how come Seles had to struggle to beat #143 Kijimuta in the 4R of the French in 1992?

The difference is the 93 U.S Open was a semifinal. A top player should be in form by that point if they are really playing well.

That was a Fed Cup loss. Not counted towards rankings. And played the week after Wimbeldon.

So you really think Graf didnt care about losing to Nicole Provis since it was only Fed Cup? Why was she even playing it then.

This is a sickening comment. Because it upholds Seles as the standard bearer, when she was nothing of the kind.

From 1990-1993, until being stabbed, she was. Graf was looking like a short Hewitt like transition champion between Evert/Navratilova and Seles, even if more successful than Hewitt as the 2 year transition #1.

Court (Australian), Navratilova (Wimbledon), and Evert (French) had more more opportunities than Graf did to earn the most # of titles at those 3 majors.

and whose fault was that? Graf didnt have to retire at barely 30. It isnt the others fault they felt they could take on the best well into their 30s, and Graf was scared of the power of the next generation so fled when she was still fully able to play and potentially contend alot longer.

Their US Open matchups were:
1985 SF (28 yo Martina vs 16 yo Steffi in her first ever major semi)
1986 SF (29 yo #1 Martina vs 17 yo Steffi.....thanks God Martina held on by a whisker to take that match)
1987 F 30 yo Martina upends recently new #1 Steffi
1989 Graf beats Navratilova comprehensively, winning 11 of the last 14 games.
1991 SF, 34 yo Martina stuns #1 Steffi 76,67,64 (in the worst match of Graf's career).

Graf at 27/28 was already a shadow of her old self, getting crushed by Amanda Coetzer of all people. You really think Graf at 17/18, the same ages Seles completely dominated womens tennis and Graf, was further from her prime than 29/30 year old Martina? Even more incredibly you think a 32 year old Martina was in her absolute prime, LOL! OK lets go along with that nonsense just for the sake of argument though. You seem to atleast concede Graf was prime in 1987, 1989, 1991. So even if Martina was prime 1985, 1986, 1987, 1991, that means with 3 of their 5 matches being in Graf's prime she still went a lowly 1-4 vs Navratilova at the U.S Open, and as a 22 year old #1 ranked player who had dominated most of the last 4 years lost to a well past her prime 34 year old Martina. Her one win Martina had to choke a 6-3, 4-2 lead to boot or it would be a perfect 5-0 for a 28-34 year old Martina over 16-22 year old Graf at the U.S Open, their most neutral meeting ground. How embarassing, especialy for someone whose fans argue her as the so called GOAT.

Martina was out of her prime in 1991. But who is to say she wasn't part of her prime in 1985-1989?

In 1987 Martina won only 4 of 12 tournaments she entered, little to do with Steffi who only denied her 2. She was suffering beatdown losses to all kinds of players, including Chris who was even older than Martina, and some much lower ranked ones. This is the same women who was losing 2 matches a year at her peak. You really think was still prime Martina? Never mind the Martina that came after the visible 1987 decline.

Am still wondering, since Graf faced no real competition other than Seles, just who was Mons competition. Surely you can't say MJ Fernandez, Novotna, Sanchez, and granny Navratilova.

Again who cares, nobody is saying Seles is the GOAT. Just that she is an asterix on Graf's career. Anyway Seles faced Graf herself winning all those slams. Graf won only 1 slam ever facing prime Seles, and it was on grass where she is useless.

[Gizo]

Navratilova not winning either the German or Italian Open titles during her career is not a hole on her CV in the slightest.

Yes they were always big tournaments for the men. However for the women it was a completely different story. Rome was pretty much meaningless and a joke of a tournament until Sabatini came along and got the Italian fans interested in women's tennis, and who cared about Berlin before Graf emerged.

During Navratilova's prime, Amelia Island and Hilton head were much bigger clay court tournaments than Berlin and Rome, and offered significantly more prize money. And her record at those tournaments was very good.

In the past on this forum I've seen people using revisionist theory to say that Navratilova skipped the meaningless Berlin and Rome to avoid facing Evert on the European clay. LOL if Evert herself read that she would laugh at the stupidity of those comments.

[suwanee4712]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

From 1982 to 1985 the belief was Martina's best on clay > Chris's best. The 1984 French final Chris didnt even play badly and still got destroyed. The 1985 French final the belief was Chris had to play out of her mind to beat a subpar Martina. In the 1986 French Chris was up and down all event, and actually played a bad first set of the final, and still came back to win over an in form Martina, so by 1986 this had obviously changed and Chris's best on clay > Martina's best again, but for several years before that it was not the case. For that to be so shows what a strong clay court Martina was. Plus the 1987 French where at 30 and past her prime she spanked Evert (granted Chris was even older but both were still playing strong tennis then) and then outplayed and should have beaten a prime soon to be #1 Graf on a surface Graf was supposed to dominate Martina but couldnt.

So happy for Kathy Horvath in Paris in 1983. But had Chris and Martina met in the French final that year it may have been one of their best ever. Chris was on a roll in the slams but Martina had already throttled her at the YEC.

Agreed on the 1985 final. The match was exciting but overly romanticized in our memories. Martina, as Pam Shriver put it, played so average. She hit short and rolled her forehamd with excessive topspin that made her extremely attackable and did little to set up approaches. Their matches in 1984 at the US Open and 1987 at Houston and Wimbledon were better in quality to me.

[BTURNER]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

From 1982 to 1985 the belief was Martina's best on clay > Chris's best. The 1984 French final Chris didnt even play badly and still got destroyed. The 1985 French final the belief was Chris had to play out of her mind to beat a subpar Martina. In the 1986 French Chris was up and down all event, and actually played a bad first set of the final, and still came back to win over an in form Martina, so by 1986 this had obviously changed and Chris's best on clay > Martina's best again, but for several years before that it was not the case. For that to be so shows what a strong clay court Martina was. Plus the 1987 French where at 30 and past her prime she spanked Evert (granted Chris was even older but both were still playing strong tennis then) and then outplayed and should have beaten a prime soon to be #1 Graf on a surface Graf was supposed to dominate Martina but couldnt.

I NEVER decide 'best' years because its always inevitably cherry -picking for an agenda. I look at a career. Martina was clearly the best clay courter in the world in 1984. That is the year, 1984. Not '82, 83, or 85, let alone 1975, 76,77,78,79, 80,81,86,87,88,89,or 90. Now all you have to do is stop picking and choosing and ask yourself on which surface was the disparity in wins/ losses the greatest in the Evert/ Navratilova rivalry for either one, NadalAgassi . Was it hard courts, grass, carpet or clay? Its a division problem

Hard courts: Navratilova 9-7
Clay courts: Evert 11–3
Grass courts: Navratilova 10–5
Carpet courts: Navratilova 21-14

Now don't make excuses or explain it away. Just look at the disparity including events from the first time they met on clay to the last time they met on clay in 1988.

Now then look at all those tourney's each won on clay and add them up and who they beat. Resist the temptation to 'interpret' or spin the scores, or label the opponents. This isn't even close in results. Now while I agree Martina could have won far more if she had entered more on the continent. I don't give credit for what she could have done. she walks off with two RG titles, 4 other RG finals and virtually nothing else on red clay for a 20 year career. Tis a fine record for a women's champion. Its much better than King's, and Williams for example. Its the worst record of the 7 women I listed who have clear GOAT CREDS.