Sports drinks and gels

[YK]

Caffeine has a known pharmacologic diuretic effect. Many believe it is dose dependent and only larger doses do it. I actually think it is true based on personal experience of exposure to high doses. Second aspect is that individual diuretic response may be dependent on person's overall exposure to caffeine. Having said that, a potential diuretic would be the last thing I'd take before expected dehydration of a tennis match. Caffeine, as many above said, provides zero metabolic fuel value.

[Ramon]

Originally Posted by YK

Caffeine has a known pharmacologic diuretic effect. Many believe it is dose dependent and only larger doses do it. I actually think it is true based on personal experience of exposure to high doses. Second aspect is that individual diuretic response may be dependent on person's overall exposure to caffeine. Having said that, a potential diuretic would be the last thing I'd take before expected dehydration of a tennis match. Caffeine, as many above said, provides zero metabolic fuel value.

I agree that caffeine has no metabolic value as a fuel for energy, but as a stimulant that helps you stay mentally alert, it's quite effective. Personally, I don't notice a diuretic response from it. Of course, I drink plenty of water during a typical tennis match.

In the past, I've used a few pre-workout powders that have lots of caffeine in them (among many other ingredients), most notably NO-Xplode and Assault. I actually liked the results on the tennis court. They didn't make me jittery or anything, and I was looking out for that. The only negative side-effect was that if I took them in the late afternoon or evening, I couldn't get any sleep that night. I don't take them anymore, but I can see why they might have some value for tennis players.

[YK]

Originally Posted by Ramon

I agree that caffeine has no metabolic value as a fuel for energy, but as a stimulant that helps you stay mentally alert, it's quite effective. Personally, I don't notice a diuretic response from it .

I only notice diuresis if I consume a lot of it within a short period of time, say 2 cups of strong coffee and some coke close together.

As far as stimulant part is concerned, it is tricky and highly variable. There is a lot of voodoo here even in hard science as "alertness" is hard to measure objectively. Some of the stuff from scientific standpoint doesn't make sense - it takes up to 45-60 min for it to get fully ingested, yet people report increased alertness within 10 min suggesting placebo effect, while others report decline in alertness 45-60 min after when it should be just at its early peak. Then there is a known tolerance development. What's very hard to measure is how long the effect would last.

The better studies, although not without flaws, that I've seen were done by the US military and NSW in particular, with a pretty good reasoning to use delivery forms other than ingestion.

[crosscourt]

Having set this thread off, and having now completed my training, an update. First of all it was very hot weather by my standards. It was 85F in the shade. That is 20 to 25 degrees hotter than it has been at home. In reality the comparison is meaningless because the conditions were so very different from anything I am used to. For the most part it was very sunny. On one day it rained although the temperature didn't drop much if it dropped at all. Most of the time there was no breeze.

The courts we played on were set in a bowl of land which intensified the heat. To start with we played from 10 until 12 in the morning and then from 2 until 4 in the afternoon. The latter was very demanding and later in my stay I changed the time of my sessions to earlier and later in the day. There were two types of court - clay and green hard courts. The clay were less demanding because they seemed to reflect the heat less.

There were three challenges - the heat, the intense sunlight, and, when it rained, humidity. The challenges were mental and physical.

I drank a lot of water. Getting on for 1.5 litres each hour of play by the end of the week. I ate a carbohydrate bar 40 minutes or so before each session. I used SIS isotonic energy gels during play. I ate a lot of bananas after I played and ate a lot of pasta at mealtimes (I know that the are differences of opinion about whether this is a good idea. But I found it was really all I wanted to eat.) I had an espresso before most sessions and really noticed it when I didn't.

So how did it go? As you will have guessed from my preoccupation with the temperature I found the heat very demanding. That said, when it rained and became very hot and humid I found it much easier. This leads me to think that it is the effect of the direct and very intense sun that is the biggest challenge (I wore a hat and shades). My fellow players, many of whom came from much hotter climes even than those we played in, found the humidity more debilitating than the heat. Not me.

Initially I didn't drink enough water during the sesssions but I realised that early on. The caffeine in a pre-training espresso really helped with the mental challenge of having to persuade myself to play hard in the sun. I should have taken more gels. They are a physical and mental stimulus on court. I don't know whether the carbohydrate bars made much of a difference. After each session I ate a banana and drank more water as well as having a pasta based meal.

Overall I coped well enough. I kept moving on court and didn't stiffen up too much between sessions (although the first night I had amazing cramp when I stretched). As some of you suggested I think I may have overlooked what else I could have taken, away from the court, to manage the demands. The are probably supplements I could have taken at mealtimes that might have helped further. But having said that it is the intense sunlight that was the biggest challenge I am not sure that there is anything that can be done about that. I also found the heat of a hard court coming up through my shoes had quite an effect on my ankles and knees. And my feet really swelled up.

Anyway it was a very enjoyable and productive stay. My tennis had a good test and I learned to really enjoy clay court tennis again. Thanks for all your advice.

CC

[charliefedererer]

Thanks for the nice summary of your tennis camp training.


The USTA sports science section has this summary on nutrition - what do you think of it?

"Nutrition: Performance Diet Principles for Competitive Tennis
By Page Love, MS, RD

1. Drink, Drink, Drink! Drink at least 80 oz. of hydrating fluids per day. Drink before you get thirsty. Replace a liter/hour during play. Sports beverages or water are best on the court; juices, milk, and any other decaffeinated beverages are fine during the day. Sports beverages at 6 - 7% absorb quickly from the stomach during match play, i.e. Gatorade. Fruit juices and sodas should be avoided on the court because of the high sugar concentration. Try to drink before you get thirsty!

2. Do not starve the muscles of fuel! Eating at least 8-10 servings per day from complex carbohydrate choices will create the base to maintain your muscle glycogen levels. Choose higher fiber options whenever possible - cereals, bread, rice, pasta, etc. Seven a day from fruits and vegetables will meet extra carbohydrate, mineral, and additional fluid needs from food. Choose a wide variety of colors and types of fruits and vegetables daily - something citrus, something deep green, and at least one other red, yellow, or orange choice. Divide these foods into 5-6 small meals.

3. Eat breakfast everyday! After a ten to twelve hour overnight fast your muscle energy levels are low. It is unfair to expect yourself to perform at a peak without refueling with carbohydrate sources. Many traditional breakfast choices are appropriate choices, i.e. low sugar breakfast cereal, two slices of toast, glass of juice; or, pancakes or waffles, small amount of syrup, fresh fruit, 8 oz. of skim milk. Even if you have not been eating breakfast, try eating a bagel and juice in your car on the way to the court. Starting to eat something again will help to rejuvenate you hunger levels in the morning.

4. Provide the building blocks of muscle tissue everyday! Complete protein sources like turkey, chicken, tuna, tenderloin, and fresh lean deli meats are needed at at least 4-6 oz. amounts during the day. Choose alternative protein options to meet additional protein needs such as low fat milk, cheese, and cottage cheese, light peanut butter, beans, or tofu at smaller meals to aid in satiety and fullness."

- http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Gam...titive_Tennis/





It supposedly takes the body a full two weeks to adapt to the heat:



Is this pretty much what you found?

[crosscourt]

Originally Posted by charliefedererer

Thanks for the nice summary of your tennis camp training.


The USTA sports science section has this summary on nutrition - what do you think of it?

"Nutrition: Performance Diet Principles for Competitive Tennis
By Page Love, MS, RD

1. Drink, Drink, Drink! Drink at least 80 oz. of hydrating fluids per day. Drink before you get thirsty. Replace a liter/hour during play. Sports beverages or water are best on the court; juices, milk, and any other decaffeinated beverages are fine during the day. Sports beverages at 6 - 7% absorb quickly from the stomach during match play, i.e. Gatorade. Fruit juices and sodas should be avoided on the court because of the high sugar concentration. Try to drink before you get thirsty!

2. Do not starve the muscles of fuel! Eating at least 8-10 servings per day from complex carbohydrate choices will create the base to maintain your muscle glycogen levels. Choose higher fiber options whenever possible - cereals, bread, rice, pasta, etc. Seven a day from fruits and vegetables will meet extra carbohydrate, mineral, and additional fluid needs from food. Choose a wide variety of colors and types of fruits and vegetables daily - something citrus, something deep green, and at least one other red, yellow, or orange choice. Divide these foods into 5-6 small meals.

3. Eat breakfast everyday! After a ten to twelve hour overnight fast your muscle energy levels are low. It is unfair to expect yourself to perform at a peak without refueling with carbohydrate sources. Many traditional breakfast choices are appropriate choices, i.e. low sugar breakfast cereal, two slices of toast, glass of juice; or, pancakes or waffles, small amount of syrup, fresh fruit, 8 oz. of skim milk. Even if you have not been eating breakfast, try eating a bagel and juice in your car on the way to the court. Starting to eat something again will help to rejuvenate you hunger levels in the morning.

4. Provide the building blocks of muscle tissue everyday! Complete protein sources like turkey, chicken, tuna, tenderloin, and fresh lean deli meats are needed at at least 4-6 oz. amounts during the day. Choose alternative protein options to meet additional protein needs such as low fat milk, cheese, and cottage cheese, light peanut butter, beans, or tofu at smaller meals to aid in satiety and fullness."

- http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Gam...titive_Tennis/





It supposedly takes the body a full two weeks to adapt to the heat:



Is this pretty much what you found?

You certainly do acclimatise. Whether at the rate suggested in the graph or not I don't know. My feeling is that the advice above is good advice. (I probably didn't eat as much protein as he suggests.) But it doesn't give you everything you need. My problem was not just playing in high temperatures but playing in much higher temperatures than I was used to. The physical element of this was something I expected. With one or two more aches and pains than I might have hoped for it was quite easy to manage my body. Managing your mind is slightly harder. After three days of playing in the middle of the afternoon I was finding it hard to concentrate. Caffeine definitely helped. As did the prospect of a reward - so the thought that in five minutes I would have a gel and that would give me energy certainly helped my concentration.

CC

[JohnnyFive]

Originally Posted by Ramon

That says it all! You want your energy to be based on sugar and you have no concern for its effects. There's no more need for testimony to your lack of knowledge.

With all due respect, you know very little (I'm being kind so as to not say "absolutely nothing") of the science behind this, so I would refrain if I were you, from making any more of these absurd statements.

[Ramon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFive

With all due respect, you know very little (I'm being kind so as to not say "absolutely nothing") of the science behind this, so I would refrain if I were you, from making any more of these absurd statements.

What are your qualifications? You're coming off like an elitist jerk. If you're that smart, can you please post your published, peer-reviewed, scientific journal articles on the subject?

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by Ramon

What are your qualifications? You're coming off like an elitist jerk. If you're that smart, can you please post your published, peer-reviewed, scientific journal articles on the subject?

You first.

[Ramon]

Originally Posted by jonnythan

You first.

I'm not the one playing the intellectual elitist trying to exclude others from the discussion. That would be yourself, so the onus is on you, not me. BTW, it's against the rules of the forum to be hiding behind 2 identities. You can get yourself banned for that.

I'm going to make the assumption that since you didn't answer my question, that you are no more qualified than a high school kid failing his science classes. I'm mostly done with this discussion anyway, but I have no need to heed your advice.

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by Ramon

I'm not the one playing the intellectual elitist

You've spent half this thread saying things like "There's no more need for testimony to your lack of knowledge" and "I think it's a waste of time considering your knowlege base. Bye."

Now you're challenging someone else to show their credentials but neglecting to share your own?

Uh huh.

[Ramon]

Originally Posted by jonnythan

You've spent half this thread saying things like "There's no more need for testimony to your lack of knowledge" and "I think it's a waste of time considering your knowlege base. Bye."

Now you're challenging someone else to show their credentials but neglecting to share your own?

Uh huh.

If you go back far enough, you're the one who started the whole thing. It's very clear. I'm surprised you're still on the forum with 2 identities. You don't play by the rules.

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by Ramon

I'm surprised you're still on the forum with 2 identities. You don't play by the rules.

What the eff?

Are you ever right about *anything*? Geez.

[JohnnyFive]

Originally Posted by Ramon

What are your qualifications? You're coming off like an elitist jerk. If you're that smart, can you please post your published, peer-reviewed, scientific journal articles on the subject?

I'll show you mine if you show me yours, jerk.

You are the one making absurd claims as to the validity (or invalidity) of consuming glucose in a sports drink (or otherwise). So, show me what you have to back it up. Give it up. You know very little, it would seem, on the subject, and the more you talk (or type), the more you come across as an ignoramus.

[danno123]

I was interested in hydration, so I looked at what doctors use (google "oral rehydration salts"). I've tried to make a cheap substitute for the store bought stuff by adding some sugar, Morton salt lite (which contains both potassium chloride and sodium chloride), ordinary table salt and baking soda to my water bottle. My recipe, which I'm not sure is optimum, is:
2 Tbs sugar
1/2 tsp Morton salt lite
1/2 tsp table salt
1/4 tsp baking soda
mixed into a little over 1 qt of water (I try to err on the side of too much water).

Keep in mind that I'm not a doctor. I'm just a guy who was interested in the subject and did some internet research. This recipe may not be any good.

[pvaudio]

Easy gentlemen. Water, electrolytes, simple sugars, complex sugars and proteins are all required for training. This has been extensively studied. While I myself aman engineer, I was raised by an amateur racing cyclist whose day job happens to be a professor of medicine. His regimen for a 100mi ride consists of 1 bottle w/ water with nuun mixed in, four gels, and the second bottle being an accelerade mixture. In order that's water, electrolytes, both sugars and proteins. It's no coincidence that charliefederer's article states exactly this mix just as I had on the previous page. Another very useful addition is for recovery/changeovers, chocolate milk. You'll be hard pressed to find a better post-workout drink.

http://www.utexas.edu/news/2011/06/22/milk_studies/

After riding a bike for 90 minutes at moderate intensity, then for 10 minutes of high intensity intervals, 10 trained cyclists had significantly more power and rode faster (reduced their ride time by an average of six minutes) when they consumed low-fat chocolate milk rather than a carbohydrate sports drink or calorie-free beverage.

Compared to the other recovery drinks, chocolate milk drinkers had twice the improvement in maximal oxygen uptake after four and a half weeks of cycling, which included intense exercise five days a week, with each exercise session followed by one of the three recovery beverages. Maximal oxygen uptake is one indicator of an athlete's aerobic endurance and ability to perform sustained exercise. The study included 32 healthy, amateur male and female cyclists.

Ivy's research also revealed that low-fat chocolate milk drinkers built more muscle and shaved off more fat during training, ending up with a three-pound lean muscle advantage after four and a half weeks of training as compared to study participants who consumed a carbohydrate drink. This study also included 32 healthy, amateur male and female cyclists who rode for one hour, five days a week, and drank one of the three recovery beverages immediately following and one hour after the bout of exercise.

"We don’t yet understand exactly what mechanism is causing low-fat chocolate milk to give athletes these advantages — that will take more research," said Ivy, "but there's something in the naturally-occurring protein and carbohydrate mix that offers significant benefits."

Ivy notes that a 30-minute recovery window after exercise, for people of all fitness levels, is as important as the nutrition supplement that's consumed.

[jonnythan]

Originally Posted by Ramon

Keep it up with the personal attacks please. You won't be here for long at this rate with 2 identities. I won't get sucked into this game.

Well I've been here 2 years longer than you. I don't know who you think my other identity is. Considering you have 1300 posts in about 10 months I suspect you're the one with 2 identities

[crosscourt]

Originally Posted by pvaudio

Easy gentlemen. Water, electrolytes, simple sugars, complex sugars and proteins are all required for training. This has been extensively studied. While I myself aman engineer, I was raised by an amateur racing cyclist whose day job happens to be a professor of medicine. His regimen for a 100mi ride consists of 1 bottle w/ water with nuun mixed in, four gels, and the second bottle being an accelerade mixture. In order that's water, electrolytes, both sugars and proteins. It's no coincidence that charliefederer's article states exactly this mix just as I had on the previous page. Another very useful addition is for recovery/changeovers, chocolate milk. You'll be hard pressed to find a better post-workout drink.

http://www.utexas.edu/news/2011/06/22/milk_studies/

Would he have adapted that regimen if he was cycling 100 miles a day for say two weeks?

[r2473]

Originally Posted by pvaudio

Another very useful addition is for recovery/changeovers, chocolate milk. You'll be hard pressed to find a better post-workout drink.

http://www.utexas.edu/news/2011/06/22/milk_studies/

chocolate milk on changeovers?

ever tried it yourself?

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by Power Player

Just stick with the electrolyte packs and an on court snack of your choice and lots of water and you will be good to go.

a wildcard - I bring mustard packs. It sounds weird but I have dealt with nasty cramps in my legs now and then and if I feel one coming I eat a pack or 2 and the vinegar in it really helps me.

I'd eat an hour before playing, and have 1 electrolyte pack as well. Bring a ton of water with another elecotrolyte pack mixed in.

I play in florida in extreme heat and humidity and this works for me. the BCAAs work for me as well, but are not a necessity. I take them because I do leangains and need to supplement protein throughout the day. Ramon and I both live here and play in this environment.

PP, I played a match yesterday in the hottest weather I have ever played in. The forcast was only 96 so we scheduled our match but it actually got up to 106 and there was absolutely no breeze whatsoever. I did have a pedialyte drink and some pickle juice before leaving fot the courts but today I am really feeling that match.