Stats for Agassi-Sampras (1995 AO final)

[abmk]

Originally Posted by krosero

Let me ask you, ABMK, what's the logic for marking half-volleys down as volleys? In the other thread people were mentioning Federer, Agassi, Connors etc. taking balls on the rise from the baseline. Yet those would never be considered volleys. The ball might be taken instantly, as soon as it rises an inch off the bounce, but it would still be considered a groundstroke.

So why would other types of half-volleys be considered volleys? Why do you do it that way? Is it because they're in front of the service line?

IMO the location of the shot has nothing to do with it. The location of the player determines whether it's a net point or a baseline point, of course. But a player can hit a volley with his feet firmly planted at the baseline, and can hit an easy groundstroke putaway while standing on top of the net. How would you separate a putaway of that kind from a type of half-volley that should be put down as a volley?

That seems like too much of a judgment call, which is why I just let the bounce, or lack of a bounce, determine it. And I don't know if any statisticians count half-volleys as volleys, but do you know?

I hadn't given much thought to this before. I guess it was the location, the net, that influenced me. But you are right, they should be counted as groundstrokes

[Nadal_Power]

krosero, Agassi served 21/25 in 4th set of 1995 AO final match, not 22/25

Per games :

2nd 3-1
4th 5-0
6th 5-1
8th 5-0
10th 3-2


And in 3rd set he is on 32/46, not 33/46

[Laurie]

Did anyone do any stats for the 1995 US Open final between the two? Would be interesting to know how those stats match up to the Australian Open match. Pity they didn't meet in the 1995 Wimbledon final.

By the way, can't believe Sampras served 28 aces in 4 sets, on a court that was as slow as that one in 1995. The pace of rebound ace in the mid 1990s was more akin to the slow hardcourts we have all over the world today.

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by Laurie

Did anyone do any stats for the 1995 US Open final between the two? Would be interesting to know how those stats match up to the Australian Open match. Pity they didn't meet in the 1995 Wimbledon final.

By the way, can't believe Sampras served 28 aces in 4 sets, on a court that was as slow as that one in 1995. The pace of rebound ace in the mid 1990s was more akin to the slow hardcourts we have all over the world today.

Pete hit 12 of that 28 aces in 4th set, 17 of 25 points on serve he won with ace or service winner in that set.. he was very tired

Not sure how slow it was but points were very quick. Average number of shots in points per set in 2nd, 3rd and 4th was 4, 4,5 and 2,9

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

krosero, Agassi served 21/25 in 4th set of 1995 AO final match, not 22/25

Per games :

2nd 3-1
4th 5-0
6th 5-1
8th 5-0
10th 3-2


And in 3rd set he is on 32/46, not 33/46

Thanks for these, did you have the breakdown in the third too?

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by krosero

Thanks for these, did you have the breakdown in the third too?

Sure

1st 3-3
3rd 7-1
5th 6-2
7th 5-1
9th 4-1
11th 3-3
TB 4-3

[90's Clay]

Andre was certainly GOAT-like in Australia in 1995.. His level was crazy high that tournament and into the summer

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

Sure

1st 3-3
3rd 7-1
5th 6-2
7th 5-1
9th 4-1
11th 3-3
TB 4-3

In the 9th I still have 5-0 (I re-checked it).

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by krosero

In the 9th I still have 5-0 (I re-checked it).

Just saw it again, you are right

Will put that in my stats of the match, thanks

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

Just saw it again, you are right

Will put that in my stats of the match, thanks

I'll update my posts too for the fourth set change.

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by krosero

I'll update my posts too for the fourth set change.

I will soon publish point by point analyse of the match but I miss 9 or 10 points from first set. I'm downloading longer version of the match from the torrent, but its going slow at the moment maybe you will need to tell me few things about that points in a few days, if that's o.k of course

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

I will soon publish point by point analyse of the match but I miss 9 or 10 points from first set. I'm downloading longer version of the match from the torrent, but its going slow at the moment maybe you will need to tell me few things about that points in a few days, if that's o.k of course

I think the whole match is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jFPZh_8lp8

(If anything's missing I could help you though I won't have my dvd handy for another week or two).

[Nadal_Power]

I have that version and 8th game of first set and half of 9th are missing

Cool, maybe 'till than I will download better version but will let you know

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Laurie

Did anyone do any stats for the 1995 US Open final between the two? Would be interesting to know how those stats match up to the Australian Open match. Pity they didn't meet in the 1995 Wimbledon final.

By the way, can't believe Sampras served 28 aces in 4 sets, on a court that was as slow as that one in 1995. The pace of rebound ace in the mid 1990s was more akin to the slow hardcourts we have all over the world today.

We have stats on that match here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=230227

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

Not sure how slow it was but points were very quick. Average number of shots in points per set in 2nd, 3rd and 4th was 4, 4,5 and 2,9

This is always an interesting stat, glad you did this.

I'm sure you've seen my posts upthread where I got that stat for other Sampras-Agassi matches, but I'll re-post them so we can do a quick compare.

Originally Posted by krosero

The New York Times said that in 2000 the Rebound Ace court was playing "quicker than usual." Patrick McEnroe said that the balls were pumped with air in such a way as to make them very fast. He added that conditions were “about as similar to a grass court as you could have.”

That got me curious enough to count the average length of points in the third set, which Sampras won 7-6 (7-0). I did the same for the third set at their '99 W final (which Sampras won 7-5) and the third set of their '01 USO quarterfinal (also won by Sampras, 7-6).

1999 - average point lasted 2.85 hits
2000 - 3.12
2001 - 3.25

I counted everything in a point up through and including any error that may have ended it. Double-faults are counted as 1 hit.

The Times reported that this was a career-high for Sampras and that 4 of his aces were on second serve.

Originally Posted by krosero

One thing I think I did wrong here is counting double-faults, because the ball never goes into play. If I ever do this stat again I won't count the df's. You could have a player make a rash of them and it would make the average rally seem shorter.

Agassi and Sampras were making very few df's in these samples so no problem there.

The figure I got in the AO match might go down even further in the fourth set because Sampras started serving a tidal wave of aces. I didn't count them myself but going by ESPN's running count, it looks like he hit 18 aces in that set -- after serving 17 in the first three sets combined.

So the rallies in their 1995 AO final were perhaps short, but for the most part they were longer than the average rally in those later matches.

Big difference is that Sampras was SVing on all his serves, in those 1999-01 matches. At the AO in '95 he was staying back a lot. I'll re-post this quote from The Age:

From the first few points it was clear that Sampras, the best serve-volleyer in the business, would only occasionally be attacking at the net. He said later that this was because of the quality of Agassi's returns, "the best in the world by far". But his unwillingess to volley left him trying to out-rally Agassi playing him at his own game.

[krosero]

Agassi won 58 of 72 points on 1st serve (71%) and 22 of 36 on 2nd serve (61%). He won the first 8 points started on his second serve.

Sampras won 54 of 71 points on 1st serve (76%) and 30 of 68 on 2nd serve (44%). He won the first 13 points started on his first serve.


Success on serve when serves were successfully returned:

Agassi 56% on first serve (30/54) and 58% on second (14/24).
Sampras 41% on first serve (12/29) and 32% on second (15/47).

The serve that retained the greatest effect on the outcome of the point, if it was returned: Agassi’s second serve.

************************

Agassi made 4 of 7 first serves in the tiebreak.
Sampras made 4 of 7 first serves in the tiebreak.

(It was the only tiebreak these two ever played in a Slam final.)

************************

Agassi served on 118 points, and 36 serves did not come back: 30.5%
Sampras served on 139 points, and 57 serves did not come back: 41.0%

Agassi nearly kept even with Sampras in return errors when he could get his racquet on the ball; but a lot of aces got by him.

Agassi drew 18 of 26 return errors with first serves.
Sampras drew only 14 of 29 return errors with first serves.

[Nadal_Power]

I saw that, I always count how many shots were in the point, like that stat and it tells a lot. 2.85, 3.12 and 3.25 are great numbers, just compare that with boring tennis of today

I do just like you, every clear hit and 1 stroke for double fault. I will do many matches point by point in the future, always with number of shots per player and per sets

For example, in 1992 Masters Cup RR match between Sampras and Becker number of strokes per points was 2,7.. of 145 total points 127 were points with 1-4 strokes, 15 points with 5-8 strokes and only 3 points with 9-12 shots

[Blocker]

Originally Posted by lovethetriangle

Wow I clearly remember watching this match, one of Agassi's first tournaments without the long hair. Plus the Koala bear with the trophy.

I was at this match and you are correct, it was Agassi's come out of the closet about his baldness tournament. The Melbourne media nicknamed him the "Black Prince", sort of like a pirate, he had the goatie as well.

Like I said, I was at this match and I was a big Sampras fan. Agassi was on fire the whole tournament, not having dropped a set before the final. Sampras on the otherhand had a couple of epic matches, especially the now famous match against Courier where he was crying on court because of his coach. Sampras won the first set but I had this strong feeling in my own mind that if it got to a set all Agassi would win, and that's what happened.

[Tagg]

agassi is the best in the open era at the AO

surface was absolutely made for his game

unfortunately for sampras, the AO was always a mixed bag

he never seemed comfortable there, and lost to players he would normally routine on any other hard court

pity really, because the 1R exit at RG aside, sampras was excellent at wimbledon and the US that year

95 was definitely a crucial year in their rivlary. agassi lost it for a while afterwards, losing that US final after going 24(?) matches unbeaten