Finding my strokes after 20 years. Stroke video inside

[Greg G]

Originally Posted by luisdepaula2001

Greg et all,
Congrats on a great thread and for all the improvement.
I want to video record my strokes and as you seen to do a great job, I was wondering what set up are you using?
- camera?
- tripod?

Thanks,
Luis

Hi Luis,

Thanks! Im just using a GoPro HD camera (720p, 60fps), placed on a chair.

Greg

[Avles]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

The weight transfer on the edberg bh was great. I'll be he really crushed that ball.

It really is a thing of beauty.

I like how that video briefly encapsulates Edberg's serve and his groundstroke repertoire. His conti FH seems to get some abuse but it looks pretty good to me...

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Avles

Pic #4 is the one that makes me wonder though. The wrist flip that Hoad uses, and the extremely open racquet face that accompanies it, seem like they would make this shot touchier and harder to time.

Hoad's motion seems pretty idiosyncratic. Leaving Federer out of this, compare to some other nice 1hbh:

Lendl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd2DbLjM3fU
Almagro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siYXcoPdvx8
Edberg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD-7VVfB6U8&t=0m44s
McEnroe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTPbdOhv6dg&t=0m25s
Henin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdDwMj3_WMA

None of these players show anything close to Hoad's pic #4 position from what I see. So I'm dubious about recommending that as a model to emulate.

Actually, they all do it. Some, like Almagro, more than Hoad. That flip is correctly referred to as suppination/pronation, and it is impossible to hit an effective 1hb, topspin or slice, without it. Hoad had one of the greatest 1hb's of all time, and his technique was perfect. Today, he would have an Eastern grip and a steeper swing path made possible by the bigger racquet heads.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Actually, they all do it. Some, like Almagro, more than Hoad. That flip is correctly referred to as suppination/pronation, and it is impossible to hit an effective 1hb, topspin or slice, without it.

I just watched the Almagro video frame by frame and I saw nothing that looked remotely like the position shown in picture #4 of your Hoad example.

When Almagro reaches the point in his swing that corresponds to Hoad's picture 4, his racquet face is perpendicular to the ground. He does not rapidly and dramatically close the racquet face during his forward swing as Hoad appears to. At no point in his forward swing do his strings face the sky as Hoad's do in both pictures 3 and 4.

Once again, I don't see a position corresponding to picture #4 in any of the videos that I linked. Feel free to post screencaps that contradict me.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Avles

I just watched the Almagro video frame by frame and I saw nothing that looked remotely like the position shown in picture #4 of your Hoad example.

When Almagro reaches the point in his swing that corresponds to Hoad's picture 4, his racquet face is perpendicular to the ground. He does not rapidly and dramatically close the racquet face during his forward swing as Hoad appears to. At no point in his forward swing do his strings face the sky as Hoad's do in both pictures 3 and 4.

Once again, I don't see a position corresponding to picture #4 in any of the videos that I linked. Feel free to post screencaps that contradict me.

First, the angle of the racquet face is a function of the grip Continental vs. extreme Eastern. It has nothing to do with suppination/pronation. Second, you are comparing a face on view with a side view. Unless you understand what you're looking for, you won't see it.

PS: Here's a head on of Warwinka's backhand. At about 6 seconds, his racquet is in the pronated position ready to suppinate, or flip as the Hoad pics describe it. As I explained, the difference is the grip and the steeper swing path. Other than that, it's the same technique. The beauty of Hoad's technique is that he can hit a topspin or slice from that same position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pb4pkYLcA

[Avles]

I'm not saying that there's no supination in the 1HBH.

It's just that, from what I can see, the supination in your Hoad sequence is more pronounced that in most pro 1HBH I have seen on video. (Compare, for example, Tommy Haas at 0:09 and following in this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=49swrZyIn-4).

My feeling is that most backhands present the racquet face to the ball for a larger portion of the swing than Hoad's does.

I think this is why the caption that accompanies your photo refers to Hoad's "wristy" action, and it makes me wonder whether that sequence, instead of the many existing video sequences of other great pro backhands, is an ideal model for learning.

(I could definitely be wrong though, as I'm far from a 1HBH expert in either theory or practice...)

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by Avles

I'm not saying that there's no supination in the 1HBH.

It's just that, from what I can see, the supination in your Hoad sequence is more pronounced that in most pro 1HBH I have seen on video. (Compare, for example, Tommy Haas at 0:09 and following in this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=49swrZyIn-4).

My feeling is that most backhands present the racquet face to the ball for a larger portion of the swing than Hoad's does.

I think this is why the caption that accompanies your photo refers to Hoad's "wristy" action, and it makes me wonder whether that sequence, instead of the many existing video sequences of other great pro backhands, is an ideal model for learning.

(I could definitely be wrong though, as I'm far from a 1HBH expert in either theory or practice...)

Well, that pictogram was put in the book I copied it from as a model of perfect technique for students to emulate. The reference to "flipping" (not the best terminology), is there because that's what you have to do to hit a 1hb. Hoad's wrist action (it's really forearm action), may be more pronounced than some of todays players, but not all. It's not as pronounced as Federer's, Haas's or Gasquet's wrist action. It's just coming from a less low to high swing path. But, it's important to understand that that wrist action is EVERYTHING when hitting a 1hb. It is not merely ideal for emulating, it is essential. Without it, you can't hit a 1hb effectively, topspin or slice.

I understand that you are put off by the more open Continental grip and a more level swing than you are accustomed to seeing. Both of those reflect the lower bouncing game of the time, and the tiny sweet spot of heavy, wood racquets. But, that doesn't discount the rest of Hoad's technique in those pictures that I posted for Greg G's benefit - in particular, the full upper body rotation and swinging from the shoulder with a straight arm during the forward swing, not by straightening the elbow.

[Greg G]

More rotation, got it. Again, I think the key may lie with the left arm. Interesting discussion going on here, with great examples!

What got my attention was the amount of leg bend I get on the backhand side. So it is possible for me to do it on the forehand side!

Some quick footage of it in actual use:

http://youtu.be/kkL2ZvWNffY

[Greg G]

Had a bit of a lightbulb moment with the forehand today! The main thing that triggered the breakthrough was I emphasized the pushoff of the right leg to be more to the left, with the left leg lifting off. I think it added to the hip rotation, because the ball was really flying off the racquet face with a lot of spin and power. Kept the arm and hand really loose. Even with my arm still slightly sore and taped up, I was ripping some really powerful shots with ease-- and with no pain

I had started this exercise this past week while I was resting the arm...seems to have had a good effect (on leg strength/explosiveness, not the stroke timing).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IRH3...ailpage#t=170s

The leg push seemed to just initiate the entire forehand kinetic chain, since I wasn't consciously doing anything else, I just let it go! It naturally ended with me facing the other side, racquet head at my left hip, weight on the left foot.

And of course, on this breakthrough day, when I opened my bag, I realized I had left my video camera at home!

[5263]

Originally Posted by Greg G

Had a bit of a lightbulb moment with the forehand today! The main thing that triggered the breakthrough was I emphasized the pushoff of the right leg to be more to the left, with the left leg lifting off.

Nice job and you have hit on one of the main issues debated on here every day.
Many on here want you to step forward into the shot, but
as you have discovered, it is better for the shot when you use the rt to left aspect for rotation.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Greg G

And of course, on this breakthrough day, when I opened my bag, I realized I had left my video camera at home!

Handcuff your camera to your bag.

[Greg G]

I know! It's like it's not real if it's not on video LOL. Hope the magic is still there on Monday

[Greg G]

OK thankfully the good feeling I had last time out is still there. Wasn't consciously thinking about anything except staying loose. Perhaps I could still emphasize the left arm pointing across to the ball a little more. The feeling is that the right leg initiates the kinetic chain, transferring from right to left, which really makes the core rotate much more naturally.

Please let me know what to work on. Feels like it's really improved. Footwork is a bit better, but still needs work. I kept the video a bit long to show consistency and footwork between shots.

http://youtu.be/LqthEOl8enw

@ Cheetah, it's really hard to stop catching the racquet LOL! But I managed to do it...once.

@ Limpinhitter: yep, needs more leg bend. But gettin' there eh?

@ 5263: How do you keep the weight transfer going right to left on short balls? Or do I switch to linear weight transfer in these cases?

@ Power Player: yep thinking less helps!

@ All: contact point OK?





This compares the 2 finishes. The pictures suggest that catching may limit the shoulder rotation.

[Greg G]

Side view:

I may not have chosen a great one here. Contact is a teeny bit late (further out in front in the video). And I caught the racquet instead of letting it go naturally down to the left hip.

[Cheetah]

I don't like it.

[Limpinhitter]

The next thing I would work on is your takeback. It's too high, and your racquet face is open. From the back view, pics 4-6, I'd like to see your elbow lower, the racquet head at the same height as your head, and your left hand on the throat of the racquet through pic #6. By pic #5, you have let go with your left hand.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I don't like it.

Really?

I thought it looked pretty good for the things we were discussing.
I was going to mention for him to learn about the "pat the dog" position, and
limp may be referring to that a bit.
I will say I'm probably not at good as some at looking a frames like this and
actually am used to spotting probs more in full motion from experience.
I'm going to look some more but I liked the wt transfer and how the head stayed
stable it seemed.

I still transfer rt to left on mid court ball attacks, but maybe not as much with the
more compact swing... I also focus more on the across aspect on the mid ct
attacks.

nice overall and still looking at the frames more!

[5263]

I still think you need to drag the racket longer and take it slightly more out front.

instead of using the hand to pull across and acel the racket...look how you slow the
hand and let the racket head catch up for contact.
You end up at contact with the Forearm nearly inline with the racket best I can tell.
Imo this is not the best and it should not have caught up so much and the hand should
acel across more.

[Cheetah]

well... he's made considerable progress. that i like.

the take back is funky and certainly isn't helping anything in swing.

what i 'don't like' also is the swing path. it's ok and he could survive w/ it and all and the resulting ball cannot be criticized .. much... but something is going on in that swing that's weird.
"i don't like" means i would prefer him to fix/change it or imho i think it's wrong or could be better.

Look at the images above (the second set).. in the 5th row. Look at the racquet face in those 3 pics. He's doing something with the wrist there. It messes up the shape of the swing. so i'm thinking, but could be wrong, the the problem might be happening before contact even though his point of contact frames look good.

it's like he has a good slot, although pretty open, then swings toward the ball and makes contact with a modern swing/bent arm/face angle etc but then his wrist opens or something and the follow through is old school. ... or something. too bad we don't have hi speed vid.

how does he get from 4th row 3rd pic to 5th row 2nd pic? that's weird.

maybe he's breaking his wrist and also a combination of little to no isr? idk

[martini1]

Indoor clay court? Sweet!