Four Ball Contact?

[forehandbackhand21]

Has anybody ever heard of this? 4 ball contact? Our coach is teaching it to us, and basically he's saying to visualize hitting through four balls instead of just one
As in, drive through four balls. He says this is the "meat" of the "sandwich" for groundies. He says this is how you get effortless power and consistancy. Only problem is, I've never heard it before from any coach... and not many top junior players I know have heard of it. And when I watch pros in slow motion, they don't seem to be doing it. What's up?

[goran_ace]

I've heard coaches say hit through 2 balls, 3 balls, 4 balls, imagine hitting the other side of the ball, drive a nail through the ball, etc. It's all pretty much the same thing. He's saying you need to hit through the ball more. Listen to your coach.

Also, keep in mind this is figuratively speaking, not to literal. So you won't see it in slow motion video of pros, and top juniors might not hear it from their coaches because they already hit through the ball well.

[Limpinhitter]

Originally Posted by forehandbackhand21

Has anybody ever heard of this? 4 ball contact? Our coach is teaching it to us, and basically he's saying to visualize hitting through four balls instead of just one
As in, drive through four balls. He says this is the "meat" of the "sandwich" for groundies. He says this is how you get effortless power and consistancy. Only problem is, I've never heard it before from any coach... and not many top junior players I know have heard of it. And when I watch pros in slow motion, they don't seem to be doing it. What's up?

Is he a USTA or USPTA certified coach? Ask him if he also disputes evolution and global warming.

[tennis_balla]

Now this is going to be a fun thread.

[LeeD]

Isn't "4 balls" about 10". INCHES, not feet.
String your racket at 48 lbs., solves your problem. You will double hit unless you hit with a flattish swing path, like most of the pros today. Flattish swing path is hitting thru about 4 balls.

[sunof tennis]

Originally Posted by forehandbackhand21

Has anybody ever heard of this? 4 ball contact? Our coach is teaching it to us, and basically he's saying to visualize hitting through four balls instead of just one
As in, drive through four balls. He says this is the "meat" of the "sandwich" for groundies. He says this is how you get effortless power and consistancy. Only problem is, I've never heard it before from any coach... and not many top junior players I know have heard of it. And when I watch pros in slow motion, they don't seem to be doing it. What's up?

I have heard 3 balls. This is pretty much old school teaching. Not wrong per se, just that the modern forehand makes better use of the technology we have today.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Is he a USTA or USPTA certified coach? Ask him if he also disputes evolution and global warming.

Brutal.

10char

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter

Is he a USTA or USPTA certified coach? Ask him if he also disputes evolution and global warming.

It is just called climate change now.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by forehandbackhand21

Has anybody ever heard of this? 4 ball contact? Our coach is teaching it to us, and basically he's saying to visualize hitting through four balls instead of just one
As in, drive through four balls. He says this is the "meat" of the "sandwich" for groundies. He says this is how you get effortless power and consistancy. Only problem is, I've never heard it before from any coach... and not many top junior players I know have heard of it. And when I watch pros in slow motion, they don't seem to be doing it. What's up?

Yes, I have heard of it. It was a fairly common teaching visualization many years ago. It's basically emphasizing hitting through the ball. If the folks on your team are hitting with too much topspin and just spinning everything over then maybe your coach is trying to address this. It's hard to say without seeing.

But generally I believe this idea isn't used as a teaching aid anymore.

Ash, Dave (CoachingMastery), anyone else - thoughts?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by forehandbackhand21

Has anybody ever heard of this? 4 ball contact? Our coach is teaching it to us, and basically he's saying to visualize hitting through four balls instead of just one
As in, drive through four balls. He says this is the "meat" of the "sandwich" for groundies. He says this is how you get effortless power and consistancy. Only problem is, I've never heard it before from any coach... and not many top junior players I know have heard of it. And when I watch pros in slow motion, they don't seem to be doing it. What's up?

They extend through the ball depending on the need. It might be more for down the line and less for crosscourt shots. It might be more for hard forehand "smacks" and less for loopy balls. They do it so fast before the follow-through begins across the body that it is not easy to observe. It manifests itself in slow motion video as a three-dimensional swing pattern - front, up, and across - instead of just up and across. The front part is what he is talking about.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Usually either 3 balls or 4 ball. It's great for hitting balls flat or hitting a classic over-the-shoulder stroke with mild-to-moderate topspin. Not usually used for teaching WW finishes unless the student it hitting everything very short and loop. In this case, I might tell the student to visualize hitting thru 2 or 3 balls.

[Limpinhitter]

It's the ideal technique if you are still using a Wilson Jack Kramer Autograph or Pro Staff, Dunlop Maxply Fort, Davis Classic, Bancroft (with the bamboo veneer), Slazenger, or any of the other various and sundry 65sq.in., 14 oz, wood racquets that can still be found on e bay, strung with natural gut, preferably Victor Imperial. But, if you are using a racquet manufactured in THIS millenium, probably not so much.

[FrisbeeFool]

For some reason this advice is very controversial on this board. We've had multiple threads debating it. I got this same advice from a coach and it helped my game. It's good if you're hitting short spinny balls and you want to get the feel for driving the ball

I think it helps especially on the one handed backhand. On the one-hander you kind of separate your hands. Your front hand goes through the shot out towards your target. Your back hand extends backwards for balance.

On the forehand and two-handed backhand, you also want to hit through the ball, but you rotate your shoulders in order to do this. Your back shoulder will come around more.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by rkelley

Ash, Dave (CoachingMastery), anyone else - thoughts?

Well, using this pic as a reference...



You could argue that Nalbandian has hit through 'a few' balls as his hand hasn't moved across his body much from contact to the fourth frame (it is inline with his shoulder roughly at frame 4) and so is heading toward the target to a certain extent, but his racquet head has also moved up and across. With out being on court with the coach in question I am not going to criticise as I cannot ascertain what his motives for using this image might be, so it would be unfair to judge. There are times when I might emphasise a similar concept (although I can't recall ever using this particular terminology) if the player is lacking extension on a certain shot and I feel it would help them.

Without more information it would be unfair to to judge the coach in question.

Cheers

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

For some reason this advice is very controversial on this board. We've had multiple threads debating it. I got this same advice from a coach and it helped my game. It's good if you're hitting short spinny balls and you want to get the feel for driving the ball

I think it helps especially on the one handed backhand. On the one-hander you kind of separate your hands. Your front hand goes through the shot out towards your target. Your back hand extends backwards for balance.

On the forehand and two-handed backhand, you also want to hit through the ball, but you rotate your shoulders in order to do this. Your back shoulder will come around more.

Good point. Just yesterday a coach here was explaining to a student how body movement needs to counted when tracing the trajectory of the racket - too often people just look at the movement wrt the lower arm. It is the 3D movement of the racket decoupled from everything else that truly shows how the racket is moving.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

For some reason this advice is very controversial on this board. We've had multiple threads debating it. I got this same advice from a coach and it helped my game. It's good if you're hitting short spinny balls and you want to get the feel for driving the ball...

My point exactly.

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

... On the one-hander you kind of separate your hands. Your front hand goes through the shot out towards your target. Your back hand extends backwards for balance...

Balance is one reason. However, I believe the primary purpose is the keep the back shoulder back. There is some torso rotation (coiling & uncoiling) earlier in the stroke. By keeping the back shoulder back, the torso uncoiling is halted and a more complete kintic (power) transfer to the hitting shoulder/arm is realized.

[sureshs]

Driving the ball is the fundamental skill. Every pro can do that and that is how they produce depth and pace through the court. In contrast, rec players trying to put spin without knowing how to drive throw up weak short balls.

A wrong comparison is often made to table tennis. In that sport, a modern spongy rubber paddle has so much restitution that forward momentum is a given. In fact, intermediate players are advised to use lower speed rubbers to avoid hitting all the balls out. In tennis, it takes effort to put depth and pace on the ball (only in a few cases for low, deep and fast balls can a half volley kind of stroke be used).

[bhupaes]

IMO, if the ball is spinny and lacks pace, it probably means that the player's arm action is mostly right but he's lacking a few essential ingredients. I would check to see if he's making the unit turn and pushing off the ground correctly, and if he achieves the "racquet butt pointing at the ball" position before starting the forward swing (so that he's leading with the elbow). Also, I would check his timing and fix any early release issues that work against power. This should, in theory, result in the racquet going through the ball and preserve the all important up/across motion. If the player is told to go "through" the ball, he will do that - and most likely lose the other aspects of his arm action that were correct in the first place, due to the visualization that "through" usually implies (especially to beginners).

That said, every individual is different, and the coach will have to tailor solutions on a case by case basis after watching the individual.

[Drago]

I have heard this advice from my coach too, and IHO it is very good advice for beginners that are trying to hit spiny balls. If you are struggling to maintain consistent depth and direction (which are the most important things in a ground stroke) then this advice is for you. It will help you to control the direction and the depth of the balls, which is very fundamental skill. This is an old style classical shots, and after you master the directions and depth consistently you can include more power more racquet head speed and respectively more spin in your strokes especially on your forehand side. Then your forehand will start to look like Windshield Wiper forehand. 4, 3 or 2 balls it doesn't really matter all you have to learns is to drive the ball consistently.

[TheCheese]

It's old school advice. Alright for beginners, but it's not going to get you a great advanced forehand.