Be mindful of the snakes in the grass

Cindysphinx · 08-02-2012, 04:30 PM

My captain "Diana" had a smackdown yesterday. Here's what happened.

The day before the match, opposing captain "Sarah" emailed Diana to say Sarah was short a doubles player. Diana replied that she had all six players available. Sarah said she would keep looking for a player.

The day of the match, Diana (having been counseled by me and others to pin Sarah down and get everything in writing) wrote to Sarah again to ask whether Sarah had six players. Diana again assured Sarah that she had six players. Sarah replied that "we are defaulting Doubles Three."

Diana wrote to our team and told us Sarah was defaulting Court Three and the Court Three players didn't need to come.

Diana and her three teammates played Sarah's team and won Doubles One and Doubles Two. When Diana and Sarah went to sign scorecards, Sarah said, "I saw one of your Court Three players here, but I didn't see the other one. Since she didn't come, it's a double default." Diana hit the roof, but the league coordinator agreed with Sarah.

I say that is about the most low-down, sneaky, devious, deceptive stunt I have seen a captain pull.

If you know ahead of time you are short on players, it is OK to check with the other captain to see if she has six.

It is OK (but not great) to say nothing and make sure the other captain really did have six.

It is also OK to give notice of a default so that players don't spend time and money coming to a match that isn't going to happen.

What is not OK is to lure your opposing captain into not sending her players by specifically saying that you are defaulting a court. What possible legitimate reason is there to raise the issue of the default at all if you are going to insist that the opponents show up?

Had I been in Sarah's shoes, there is simply no way I would seek or accept a double-default under these circumstances. I don't take wins through trickery.

Sarah is on my short list of Captains Who Will Not Be Extended Any Accommodations Or Courtesies.

Mike Y · 08-02-2012, 04:36 PM

Why would the league coordinator side with Sarah if there is an e-mail that said that she was defaulting Court 3? I believe in our area once you indicate that you are defaulting a court, there are no takebacks, that line is defaulted regardless of who shows up or doesn't show up to the match.

OrangePower · 08-02-2012, 04:38 PM

Disgraceful stunt by the opposing captain.

But what is way, way more disgraceful is that the league coordinator agreed with her. What kind of a message does that send? In my section, the captain's guidelines actively encourage captains to give opposing captains prior warning of default in order to avoid wasting people's time showing up and not playing.

EDIT: Mike Y posted right before I did with the same observation - common courtesy must be a NorCal thing

sureshs · 08-02-2012, 06:45 PM

Is there any evidence in writing, e.g., emails?

NLBwell · 08-02-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangePower

Disgraceful stunt by the opposing captain.

But what is way, way more disgraceful is that the league coordinator agreed with her. What kind of a message does that send? In my section, the captain's guidelines actively encourage captains to give opposing captains prior warning of default in order to avoid wasting people's time showing up and not playing.

EDIT: Mike Y posted right before I did with the same observation - common courtesy must be a NorCal thing

The league coordinator is absolutely in the wrong. Tennis is a game of good sportsmanship and that is supposed to rule all decisions. What the captain who tricked the other captain did in order to get a double default did was no different than lying on the scorecard. She should be banned from captaining ever again and the league coordinator should be fired.

tenniscasey · 08-02-2012, 07:04 PM

Bad sportsmanship, obviously. But what do the league rules say about how defaults work? The league coordinator may have been in an impossible situation, stuck enforcing a rule he knew was being abused.

Mike Y · 08-02-2012, 07:32 PM

Looking over our local rules, I couldn't find anything about a default being permanent once the defaulting team announces it in advance. But that is the way it is generally practiced in my experience. I have been on teams have been told that the other team is defaulting a line, and my captains have told those players on that line that they don't have to show up, and we would record the default.

Interestingly enough, according to our local rules regarding double-defaults:

Quote:

DOUBLE FORFEITS: If both teams forfeit the same individual match (i.e. a double forfeit of the same position), the teams must reschedule the individual match and play it.

From here -http://www.norcal.usta.com/Leagues-Pages/16671_Captains_Handbook_revised_Table_of_Contents/#aMatch_Issues

Local Girl · 08-02-2012, 07:44 PM

What a rotten thing to do. If the local rules recommend notification of defaults, then file an administrative grievance against the league coordinator and a sportsmanship grievance against Sarah. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this.

TENNIS4FUN2 · 08-02-2012, 07:57 PM

Wow!! That is just wrong! Even in levels beyond local league, where I am at, if the other team announces a default the court players for the other team don't have to show up.

Steady Eddy · 08-02-2012, 08:12 PM

That's just unbelievable!

Cindysphinx · 08-02-2012, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs

Is there any evidence in writing, e.g., emails?

Everything was done in email.

tennis tom · 08-02-2012, 09:56 PM

I thought this thread was about snakes on tennis courts. I was playing on a grass court once when a woman shrieked, "SNAKE!, SNAKE!" and there was a garter snake that came up from a hole onto the court. BTW, that sucks about the default BS.

spot · 08-03-2012, 04:58 AM

Supposedly its even worse in ALTA. There is a rumor going around that in net news (the free ALTA magazine they send out quarterly) there was a rules question about a captain that said that they would be defaulting a line the day before the match but then showed up and had a full lineup. ALTA said that a default is not official until the lineups are exchanged.

To me this is a brutally bad precedent. In ALTA the all time dirty trick would now be that a team could say that they had an out of town wedding and that they could only field one line for a 9am match. So if the opposing team sent just one line to the match but the dirty team instead had two lines. The innocent team would end up defaulting lines 2 though 5 unless they could get 2 more people there by 9:20.

I really thought that this was an urban legend that even when a team says in writing that they are defaulting that they would be allowed to show up at the match with a full lineup but I guess not.

sureshs · 08-03-2012, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

Everything was done in email.

Then why don't you file a complaint and enclose the emails?

Cindysphinx · 08-03-2012, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs

Then why don't you file a complaint and enclose the emails?

To be clear . . . I am not the captain, and I wasn't there.

Anyway, my captain did file a grievance this morning. She addressed the issue of the double-default and included the email exchange.

She also identified another dispute.

Sarah's partner arrived seven minutes late (format for this match was 90 minute timed match with five minute warm-up, 15 minute default period). As I understand it, that is loss of toss and two games.

Diana advised Sarah that our team would be serving up 2-0, and Sarah disagreed. Sarah said there are no game penalties for tardiness in the DC league. Diana appealed this to the league coordinator, who agreed with Sarah.

I have to run, but I thought those time penalties are in the local rules or mid-Atlantic rules or something.

bcart1991 · 08-03-2012, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot

Supposedly its even worse in ALTA.

I had to deal with this last men's season. One team lost a bunch of points by playing an illegal player, and we played them the last match.

Their captain went back and forth with me and my co-captain trying to pull some shady nonsense, and ended up sending one line. I made sure that all my guys were there at 9am just in case their captain tried to pull a fast one.

My wife could have ruined a whole team's season when one of their Line 1 players was over 30 minutes late for their match (first match of the season). Lines 2 and 3 had already started when the default time hit. my wife was gracious enough to play and not default the entire team for the season.

Cindysphinx · 08-03-2012, 06:46 AM

I think it is sad when you have to lawyer up to play a league match.

Best practice is to ask the captain directly: "Are you defaulting a line, and do you agree that my players need not be present to claim the default?"

anubis · 08-03-2012, 06:57 AM

maybe the league coordinator is afraid of Sarah. sounds like he/she is siding with her all the time.

TeflonTom · 08-03-2012, 06:59 AM

maybe the league coordinator has his snake in sarah's grass

sureshs · 08-03-2012, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

To be clear . . . I am not the captain, and I wasn't there

You will always be MY captain

08-02-2012, 04:30 PM	#1
Cindysphinx G.O.A.T. Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 14,079	Be mindful of the snakes in the grass My captain "Diana" had a smackdown yesterday. Here's what happened. The day before the match, opposing captain "Sarah" emailed Diana to say Sarah was short a doubles player. Diana replied that she had all six players available. Sarah said she would keep looking for a player. The day of the match, Diana (having been counseled by me and others to pin Sarah down and get everything in writing) wrote to Sarah again to ask whether Sarah had six players. Diana again assured Sarah that she had six players. Sarah replied that "we are defaulting Doubles Three." Diana wrote to our team and told us Sarah was defaulting Court Three and the Court Three players didn't need to come. Diana and her three teammates played Sarah's team and won Doubles One and Doubles Two. When Diana and Sarah went to sign scorecards, Sarah said, "I saw one of your Court Three players here, but I didn't see the other one. Since she didn't come, it's a double default." Diana hit the roof, but the league coordinator agreed with Sarah. I say that is about the most low-down, sneaky, devious, deceptive stunt I have seen a captain pull. If you know ahead of time you are short on players, it is OK to check with the other captain to see if she has six. It is OK (but not great) to say nothing and make sure the other captain really did have six. It is also OK to give notice of a default so that players don't spend time and money coming to a match that isn't going to happen. What is not OK is to lure your opposing captain into not sending her players by specifically saying that you are defaulting a court. What possible legitimate reason is there to raise the issue of the default at all if you are going to insist that the opponents show up? Had I been in Sarah's shoes, there is simply no way I would seek or accept a double-default under these circumstances. I don't take wins through trickery. Sarah is on my short list of Captains Who Will Not Be Extended Any Accommodations Or Courtesies. __________________ -- Random Error Generator, Version 4.0 -- Master Moonballer

08-02-2012, 08:12 PM	#10
Steady Eddy Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,127	That's just unbelievable! __________________ I strive not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them or to hate them, but to understand them. - Spinoza

08-02-2012, 09:56 PM	#12
tennis tom Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,792	I thought this thread was about snakes on tennis courts. I was playing on a grass court once when a woman shrieked, "SNAKE!, SNAKE!" and there was a garter snake that came up from a hole onto the court. BTW, that sucks about the default BS. __________________ "...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox Last edited by tennis tom : 08-03-2012 at 07:03 AM.

08-03-2012, 06:46 AM	#17
Cindysphinx G.O.A.T. Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 14,079	I think it is sad when you have to lawyer up to play a league match. Best practice is to ask the captain directly: "Are you defaulting a line, and do you agree that my players need not be present to claim the default?" __________________ -- Random Error Generator, Version 4.0 -- Master Moonballer

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