Patrick McEnroe at G12 Super Nationals

[coaching32yrs]

Assuming Alohajrtennis accurately quoted PMac I find PMac's mumbling, stumbling, unintelligible recent statement on the proposed changes in junior tennis shocking. You would think given all the opposition to the proposed changes a Stanford grad making a million a year would offer a clear, concise, logical, rehearsed response. As an alum I can say, "Patrick you did not do us proud!"

[ClarkC]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

In youth baseball there are lots of discussions about a variety of issues. But despite the fact that only an infinitesimally small fraction of young baseball players get to experience national competition based on ability and merit, you don't hear complaints about "opportunities being denied" or "we used to enjoy going to Williamsport or Aberdeen so much" that you hear about on this board in the context of tennis.

If you had a system in baseball where any group of rich parents could get their local team into a 256-draw or 512-draw "Little League World Series," and after a generation of that system, you proposed replacing it with a local->state->regional->national funnel that produced only four American teams and four foreign teams for the final tournament, you would probably hear a lot of the same complaints. People would get used to bragging that "my kid played in the Little League World Series" and then that rug would be pulled out from under them, and you would hear plenty.

That said, there are other aspects of the proposed USTA changes that have no analogue in baseball, and people could very well be complaining for good reason. There is no question that in Little League, if you win the local tourney, you move on to the next level tourney. Win that, you go to the state tourney. Finish in the top 2 in the state tourney, you go to regionals, etc. People seem to have legitimate concerns about the new funnel being set up by USTA. I hope to spend some time reading and understanding the new funnel, but have to work non-stop today starting now. Interesting and informative discussion.

[sbw2z]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Good luck with this Dallas. The USTA has had a monopoly on junior tennis for so long I don't think they can conceive of competition. But they are creating a great opportunity that for tennis entrepreneurs.

Yeah, but the Georgia Junior Open IS a USTA tournament. I can't see the USTA worrying about other "national" type tournaments popping up to serve the need of USTA players that don't make it into THE nationals. The question is whether players will be willing to travel to participate in tournaments that don't get national or sectional points but could improve their TRN ranking. The changes aren't fully in effect yet, so we'll have to wait and see. I know it was just one test case, but I'm glad the Georgia Junior Open did well this year.

Something achieved from all this is that there will be absolutely no incentive for a player to travel to participate in weak tournaments (so called point chasing). Doing so in the future won't help your USTA ranking (players won't get any national or sectional points) or your TRN ranking (players don't improve their ranking by beating much lower ranked players).

[10ismom]

Here is a link to a non-sanction BG18s "All-in" tournament in Maryland Aug 25th. Look at the webpage. Interesting concept and formatted mimicking college team play. Coaching is allowed too, I believe?!?

http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMEN....aspx?T=125355

I feel like it is a big kid's version of "Little Mo".
Timing is too close to the 'Zoo so I don't think they have many applicants yet. Players nearby should give it a try.

[t135]

I forgot, how many #1 nationally ranked in the USA juniors in the 18's or even the 16's have gone on to win grand slams?

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

If you had a system in baseball where any group of rich parents could get their local team into a 256-draw or 512-draw "Little League World Series," and after a generation of that system, you proposed replacing it with a local->state->regional->national funnel that produced only four American teams and four foreign teams for the final tournament, you would probably hear a lot of the same complaints. People would get used to bragging that "my kid played in the Little League World Series" and then that rug would be pulled out from under them, and you would hear plenty.

That said, there are other aspects of the proposed USTA changes that have no analogue in baseball, and people could very well be complaining for good reason. There is no question that in Little League, if you win the local tourney, you move on to the next level tourney. Win that, you go to the state tourney. Finish in the top 2 in the state tourney, you go to regionals, etc. People seem to have legitimate concerns about the new funnel being set up by USTA. I hope to spend some time reading and understanding the new funnel, but have to work non-stop today starting now. Interesting and informative discussion.

I generally agree with all that, particularly the bolded portion.

In youth baseball.......as well as soccer, volleyball, swimming, basketball, track, lacrosse, football, (I am not sure about golf)..........there is zero consideration about earning or "chasing" points.

The entire endeavor is 100% about improving performance.

[tennisforlife77]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

I generally agree with all that, particularly the bolded portion.

In youth baseball.......as well as soccer, volleyball, swimming, basketball, track, lacrosse, football, (I am not sure about golf)..........there is zero consideration about earning or "chasing" points.

The entire endeavor is 100% about improving performance.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of kids playing baseball/ayso soccer etc and even in small catchment areas there is ample competition for almost any level of play. That is not true for tennis outside the one or two hot zones like South Florida or LA and so national/regional competition is critical for development beyond a certain level...

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by tennisforlife77

There are literally hundreds of thousands of kids playing baseball/ayso soccer etc and even in small catchment areas there is ample competition for almost any level of play. That is not true for tennis outside the one or two hot zones like South Florida or LA and so national/regional competition is critical for development beyond a certain level...

The bolded text is not consistent with my experience.

Anyone who wants to be a standout in high school or get a shot at competing after high school, needs to compete outside "small catchment" areas. Doesn't have to be at national competitions, but at least at the state/regional level.

I think the USTA changes take account of the point that at least regional competition "is critical for development beyond a certain level" as you say

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by sbw2z

Yeah, but the Georgia Junior Open IS a USTA tournament. I can't see the USTA worrying about other "national" type tournaments popping up to serve the need of USTA players that don't make it into THE nationals. The question is whether players will be willing to travel to participate in tournaments that don't get national or sectional points but could improve their TRN ranking. The changes aren't fully in effect yet, so we'll have to wait and see.

Yes, I don't think the real opportunity is there until 2014, assuming this out of control freight train stays on the tracks.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

Assuming Alohajrtennis accurately quoted PMac I find PMac's mumbling, stumbling, unintelligible recent statement on the proposed changes in junior tennis shocking. You would think given all the opposition to the proposed changes a Stanford grad making a million a year would offer a clear, concise, logical, rehearsed response. As an alum I can say, "Patrick you did not do us proud!"

I did my best to accurately transcribe, but to be fair, if you get the chance listen yourself. They were off the cuff remarks, and I couldn't accurately capture his pauses, many of his repeated statements we'rent stumbling, he was repeating himself with(for) emphasis for effect, etc. I wasnt trying to make him sound like an idiot. Yes, he could have had his talking points more rehearsed, but the issue to me was not how he presented his case, but the content of his argument itself.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

The bolded text is not consistent with my experience.

Anyone who wants to be a standout in high school or get a shot at competing after high school, needs to compete outside "small catchment" areas. Doesn't have to be at national competitions, but at least at the state/regional level.

I think the USTA changes take account of the point that at least regional competition "is critical for development beyond a certain level" as you say

I would say it is consistent with my experience, and I think we qualify as a small catchment area.

[gameboy]

I would say the number of participants in tennis is roughly equivalent to number of "tournament" teams in either baseball or soccer.

You have to remember that you have to attract hundreds of kids to have a 16 team tournament in other sports while you only need 16 kids in tennis.

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by Pro_Tour_630

I guess if you or PM or Hannity use my picture in any shape or form,,,,,,,,,I need royalties

What the USTA is trying to do is get more kids playing tennis with their ten and under program and with the 2014 changes the kids that deserve to rise to the top will.

I hereby submit for consideration my much superior drawing. I personally dont need royalties, but Lego might :




The guys going down the little shoot on the right are the Sweet 16 tea party kids...

Basically, the old system isn't a beaker, its just not as wide at the top as most people want, and not as narrow at the bottom as PD wants. With 10 and U tennis, they are trying to widen the funnel. But PMac and PD also want to narrow the bottom of the funnel, which is what we object to. As I have said before, if TAUT is successful, which I believe it will be, just leaving the number of national tournaments spots athe same is going to make the competition for these spots tougher. Basically they are simultaneously increasing the number of kids competing for a decreasing the number of spots.

[tball2day]

Great drawing. Cool lego men, nice touch.

[ClarkC]

I posted an analysis of how competitive the matches were at the USTA Clay Courts. The basic point is that you only need to reduce the draw until (A) most first round matches are competitive, or (B) most seeds have a competitive opening match. You also want to avoid excluding players who proved they belonged, as I also mentioned.

The same logic applies to all levels of tournaments, from Champs and Challengers (a.k.a. top two levels of sectionals) up to L3 and L2 nationals and then L1 Supernationals.

If the USTA had done such an analysis, they would have already posted the numbers. Obviously they did no such analysis, but they might have gotten a few things right by accident, I suppose.

I also doubt that each age group of nationals would end up with the exact same recommended draw size after such an analysis. The proper sizing to make a funnel shape that suits the numbers and quality of players depends on such an analysis.

EDIT: It is also possible that boys and girls do not need the same draw sizes to create the right funnel shape.

[klu375]

Originally Posted by ClarkC

I posted an analysis of how competitive the matches were at the USTA Clay Courts. The basic point is that you only need to reduce the draw until (A) most first round matches are competitive, or (B) most seeds have a competitive opening match. You also want to avoid excluding players who proved they belonged, as I also mentioned.

The same logic applies to all levels of tournaments, from Champs and Challengers (a.k.a. top two levels of sectionals) up to L3 and L2 nationals and then L1 Supernationals.

If the USTA had done such an analysis, they would have already posted the numbers. Obviously they did no such analysis, but they might have gotten a few things right by accident, I suppose.

I also doubt that each age group of nationals would end up with the exact same recommended draw size after such an analysis. The proper sizing to make a funnel shape that suits the numbers and quality of players depends on such an analysis.

EDIT: It is also possible that boys and girls do not need the same draw sizes to create the right funnel shape.

Today's R16 matches of G16 in San Diego - only 2 matches of 8 were competitive. Following your logic this tournament 's draw should be reduced to 8 players.
Lew Brewer did a road show in SD on Tuesday. Among things that were said - finer details of the changes will be discussed in September in NYC, this includes point tables. Max number of wildcards will be 16 in BG18, 8 in BG16, 3 in BG12, do not remember BG14.
The most important - this particular board is full of disinformation!

[Alohajrtennis]

Originally Posted by Misterbill

People, please do not believe that all the four websites listed above are for competitive national baseball leagues. The poster definitely has his facts wrong about youth baseball.

Cal Ripken sponsors youth baseball nationally. There is a World Series in Aberdeen, MD with 10 US regional champs and, I think 8 foreign entries. To get to the World Series (national competition), a team needs to win state, then its region. In Cal Ripken (and Little League) it is a steep downward pointing funnel to get to their World Series (national competition)

Our team made it in 2009 (Cal Ripken).

The other three listed sites have nothing (or very little) to do with leagues. They are tournaments set up by entrepreneurs. Any team who wants to fork over the entry fee and pay for travel can sign up. No ranking or W-L record requirement. The only hint of a league is ECTB, which has some age group leagues with teams from Virginia. This is not "regional and national competition year round". These are showcases.

In youth baseball there are lots of discussions about a variety of issues. But despite the fact that only an infinitesimally small fraction of young baseball players get to experience national competition based on ability and merit, you don't hear complaints about "opportunities being denied" or "we used to enjoy going to Williamsport or Aberdeen so much" that you hear about on this board in the context of tennis

Thanks Mr Bill, but the poster does not have his facts wrong. The links were a sampling, and while some of them are national(LL and ripken are the largest by far), many of them are regional, and some are 'entrepreneurs' who deal with independent teams, the larger point remains the same : that is that "little league' does not have a monopoly on national play the way that USTA does. There are other avenues that are available for "inter-sectional' play in the baseball world outside of the Little League(tm) World Series.

The fact is hundreds of kids from my little backwater will be on traveling baseball teams, hundreds will be on traveling volleyball teams and hundreds will be on traveling soccer teams. And I don't mean 101, the number could be closer to a thousand.

This is really just the start of where the analogy to baseball and other sports really breaks down. As others have pointed out, there is no national individual rankings, there is no point chasing. Most kids leave the junior system at high school to focus on JV and Varsity, some of the best tennis kids don't even bother with high school cause its not competitive. Pros and colleges scouting services have hundreds of scouts spread out throughout the country, tennis does not., etc,etc,etc. Its just a really bad analogy that just doesn't hold up any kind of examination

[andfor]

Just noticed yesterday, not that it will matter to many here, P-Mac tweeted thanking everyone for their participation and feedback at the Girls 12s meeting.

[hound 109]

Originally Posted by klu375

Today's R16 matches of G16 in San Diego - only 2 matches of 8 were competitive. Following your logic this tournament 's draw should be reduced to 8 players.
Lew Brewer did a road show in SD on Tuesday. Among things that were said - finer details of the changes will be discussed in September in NYC, this includes point tables. Max number of wildcards will be 16 in BG18, 8 in BG16, 3 in BG12, do not remember BG14.
The most important - this particular board is full of disinformation!

Thanks for the info on the wild cards.

Please elaborate on the disinformation on this board. Are we wrong on them eliminatating 2 of the 4 SuperNats (Spring & Winter)?

Why is it "important" to note that this board is "full of disinformation"?

[Misterbill]

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Thanks Mr Bill, but the poster does not have his facts wrong. The links were a sampling, and while some of them are national(LL and ripken are the largest by far), many of them are regional, and some are 'entrepreneurs' who deal with independent teams, the larger point remains the same : that is that "little league' does not have a monopoly on national play the way that USTA does. There are other avenues that are available for "inter-sectional' play in the baseball world outside of the Little League(tm) World Series.

The fact is hundreds of kids from my little backwater will be on traveling baseball teams, hundreds will be on traveling volleyball teams and hundreds will be on traveling soccer teams. And I don't mean 101, the number could be closer to a thousand.

This is really just the start of where the analogy to baseball and other sports really breaks down. As others have pointed out, there is no national individual rankings, there is no point chasing. Most kids leave the junior system at high school to focus on JV and Varsity, some of the best tennis kids don't even bother with high school cause its not competitive. Pros and colleges scouting services have hundreds of scouts spread out throughout the country, tennis does not., etc,etc,etc. Its just a really bad analogy that just doesn't hold up any kind of examination

This is what you said:

Originally Posted by Alohajrtennis

Dozens of these leagues have regional and national competitions year round. Here some examples :

http://www.ectb.org/ectb/
http://www.ripkentournaments.com/
http://www.superseriesbaseball.com/
http://www.cooperstownbaseballworld.com/

That is disinformation. Ripken has a national championship tournament. The others aren't state, regional, or national leagues, and the tournaments are first-come-first serve. Year-round? In Cooperstown and Aberdeen? Disinformation.

In the tournaments the others beside Ripken sponsor from time to time you can be assured of playing against a team that can afford the entry fee and travel. You cannot be assured of the level of competition because there are no competitive qualification standards. If you were talking about the USA Baseball East/West Championships or the Arizona Fall Classic or tournaments like that, I would consider them regional/national and competitive. But not the Cooperstown Baseball World tournament...........that's mostly vacation and a chance to visit the Hall of Fame. Maybe that one was Googled

Yes, I get it that there are travel teams in baseball and other sports, and that this is a significant industry. Tennis travel is (has been) still way more expensive.

If I recall an earlier post, didn't you say if someone lives in a "small catchment" area such as yours, there is no need to compete at the state or regional levels to hone college-style skills? Begs the question of why "hundreds" of kids from your little backwater are on traveling teams in baseball, plus "hundreds" for soccer, plus "hundreds" for volleyball. Something doesn't fit or is maybe a little exaggerated is the impression I am getting.